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Why are the eastern Takeda and the western one the same clan?

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s13469986133

s13469986133

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Aug 27, 2011
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In history,the eastern Takeda is called the Kai Takeda,the western one the Aki Takeda,the first leader of the Aki Takeda Ujinobu was appointed by the first Ashikaga shogun Takauji,by 1467 it has been more than 100 years.They are just two independent Takeda clan,so why do you make such an mistake,making the eastern and western Takeda the same clan?Please correct this,donot let such flaws stay in such a promising work!
 
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I think it permits of two interpretations.
Same or different clans.

[The eastern Takeda clan]
Leader 武田信賢 (TAKEDA Nobukata)
A 2nd brother
Next leader 武田国信 (TAKEDA Kuninobu)
A 3rd brother

[The western Takeda clan]
Leader 武田元綱 (TAKEDA Mototsuna)
A 4th brother

Thier father is 武田信繁 (TAKEDA Nobushige).

Takeda split into two clans in 1467 and Nobukata died of disease.
Afterwards, two clans reached an accommodation.
Kuninobu became the leader of Takeda clan and Mototsuna became the daimyo of Aki.
Paradox seems to think a same clan. It is no mistake.
 
Sorry but you made a mistake,Takeda Nobukata is the leader of Onyu-Takeda,not the eastern Takeda in Kai.You can see Onyu-Takeda in the demo map,mid-Japan,north of Biwa Lake.
Ashikaga Takauji appointed Takeda Nobutake as Daimyo of Kai and Aki,later Nobutake's second son inherited the title of Aki,from then on Kai Takeda and Aki Takeda became two independent clans.This happens in 1360s.
 
s13469986133 said:
Sorry but you made a mistake,Takeda Nobukata is the leader of Onyu-Takeda,not the eastern Takeda in Kai.You can see Onyu-Takeda in the demo map,mid-Japan,north of Biwa Lake.
Ashikaga Takauji appointed Takeda Nobutake as Daimyo of Kai and Aki,later Nobutake's second son inherited the title of Aki,from then on Kai Takeda and Aki Takeda became two independent clans.This happens in 1360s.
Click to expand...

A lot of research made both by Paradox and alpha testers went into this project and while I must confess I do not know a whole lot about Japanese history, I believe that this would have come up at some point in their research, and even if it is as you say, they chose to make the clan the way they did for a reason.
 
Einigkeit said:
A lot of research made both by Paradox and alpha testers went into this project and while I must confess I do not know a whole lot about Japanese history, I believe that this would have come up at some point in their research, and even if it is as you say, they chose to make the clan the way they did for a reason.
Click to expand...

This is a easy thing to explain.In 1363,Takeda Nobutake died.He had two daimyo titles,of Kai and of Aki.He divided the titles up between his two sons Nobunari and Ujinobu,something like Clovis did when he died.So these two Takeda clans evolved independently and never bothered to join with each other again.
This is very common in Japanese history.
 
I'm afraid that this is all subjective, especially given that the game doesn't provide room for much subtlety in internal clan politics. You're either completely independent, fighting a civil war to the death, or represented by two different characters within the same clan.

The Takeda aren't the only clan that contained significant branches within it; the rivalry between the Ogigayatsu and Yamanouchi branches of the Uesugi clan comes immediately to mind, as does the infighting of the Ogasawara. While the Aki-Takeda had significant autonomy, I'm not sure if I'd accept that it was a completely independent clan. They still maintained ties with and intermarried with the Kai-Takeda, after all.
 
I think we have to accept the decision of Paradox to make them as they are now. I remember Japanese opinions about Shogun 2 Total War. It is impossible for an european devstudio to reach 100 % accurazy in a so different cultur like japan. All in all it is a game with western people as the targetgroup. 99 % would recognize that something could be wrong in this case.
 
As Sakura points out, there are many shades of gray between a united clan and a completely separated clan and this was the solution we went with. I just went through the alpha subforum and me and the alpha researchers had a long discussion there (well, actually I mostly listened to those wiser than me) on how to deal with Takeda. So we didn't end up with this situation because we didn't bother looking up the facts, but because we made a different interpretation of the situation. It was also mentioned that since the two daimyos are so far away from each other, it would be easy for one of them to break away.
 
anyways, this should be easily moddable should anyone wish to do so. (some work at most, but shouldn't be hard should it? Not too much into modding.)
 
You only need to create a new dynasty in common\dynasties
210 = {
name="Aki-Takeda"
color = { 5 103 178 }
coat_of_arms = {
template = 0
layer = {
texture = 0
texture_internal = 111
color = 5 # Crest
color = 1 # Background
color = 0
}
}
}
Click to expand...

change the character's dynasty in the history\character files and add is_clan_leader = yes

name="Motosuna"
dynasty=210
culture = Japanese
is_clan_leader = yes
diplomacy = 1
intrigue = 3
martial = 4
add_trait = wroth
add_trait = brave
add_trait = tough_soldier
1441.1.19={
birth="1441.1.19"
}

1505.4.5={
death="1505.4.5"
}
Click to expand...

But you can't have 2 clan with the same name and you can only have one rebel in a clan and there is already Onyu Takeda.

Edit :
If you want to be consistent with other clans in the game, you'd call it Aki-Takeda or some province name-Takeda. This was the solution we went with for civil war clans and the starting clan of Koga-Ashikaga south of Uesugi.
Click to expand...
Done.
 
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Erkanan said:
You only need to create a new dynasty in common\dynasties
Click to expand...

If you want to be consistent with other clans in the game, you'd call it Aki-Takeda or some province name-Takeda. This was the solution we went with for civil war clans and the starting clan of Koga-Ashikaga south of Uesugi.
 
s13469986133 said:
Sorry but you made a mistake,Takeda Nobukata is the leader of Onyu-Takeda,not the eastern Takeda in Kai.You can see Onyu-Takeda in the demo map,mid-Japan,north of Biwa Lake.
Ashikaga Takauji appointed Takeda Nobutake as Daimyo of Kai and Aki,later Nobutake's second son inherited the title of Aki,from then on Kai Takeda and Aki Takeda became two independent clans.This happens in 1360s.
Click to expand...
I am sorry. I replied to you before I play the demo.
I researched about Takeda clan.
a-draw1_7844.jpg
 
teufels-beitrag said:
It is impossible for an european devstudio to reach 100 % accurazy in a so different cultur like japan.
Click to expand...

And having played a number of Japanese produced sims, I might add this is the case for them as well. Gameplay concerns always trump 100% accuracy, and even though there is an amazing amount of documentation from 15th-16th century Japan (especially considering there wasn't any sort of effective centralized government), there are still large gaps in the pool of information-not to mention lots of conflicting information.
 
Captain Gars said:
It was also mentioned that since the two daimyos are so far away from each other, it would be easy for one of them to break away.
Click to expand...

I think the idea is also, the concept of de jure vs. de facto. Though the two Takedas are de facto seperate, they are de jure united. Which means though one part of the clan can choose to seperate, there's also the "claim" to the total Takeda dominion if one faction decided to rebel and forcibly reunite the other half under the leadership of their own preferred clan leader.
 
The separated Takeda clan is here.
 
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