Sepuku imbecility

[Conquiztador]

I finnaly got to ask somone to make sepuku,and he refused

nothing wrong here,just that if he refuses nothing happens to him !!

How can this be possible????

 

[unmerged(85507)]

I think he has lost further honour. And if it drops below zero or to zero then he commits suicide.

 

[Pippin123]

Yeah, anytime a vassal disobey your orders (seppuku or revoking titles), they lose honor.
At some point, they will have no choice, but it's expensive if they have high honor to start with...

 

[Enravota]

Yeah, anytime a vassal disobey your orders (seppuku or revoking titles), they lose honor.
At some point, they will have no choice, but it's expensive if they have high honor to start with...

The vassal should have low honour to begin with to as seppuku (15 I believe). It should have dire consequences, though. Refusing seppuku is an act of open rebellion.

 

[unmerged(74372)]

I don't understand why we can't use our armies against our vassals when they do not obey, it's not like a clan leader would order some to suicide and then when refuses says "ok, nevermind, you go ahead and live a long and happy live". Surely he would raise and army to make sure things got done they way he wanted?

 

[Conquiztador]

yep ,this is kinda game breaking ,i mean what were the programers thinking when they let the vassals refuse sepukku?

 

[Nefaro]

I'd expect them to lose honor, but my vassal didn't lose any when I demand he commit seppuku.

And don't they automatically do it, without a choice, when reaching zero honor? So he can only refuse so many times (theoretically, from the honor penalty) before he's forced to. Unforuntately, I'm not sure if some of the honor penalties are working properly.

 

[Captain Gars]

I don't understand why we can't use our armies against our vassals when they do not obey, it's not like a clan leader would order some to suicide and then when refuses says "ok, nevermind, you go ahead and live a long and happy live". Surely he would raise and army to make sure things got done they way he wanted?

If you as a clan leader could raise your troops and attack vassals when you felt like it, it would be very overpowered and render internal diplomacy pretty much useless. It would also mean that an AI clan leader would do this against you if you played a vassal, which I think most players wouldn't enjoy as it basically would mean game over. If a vassal has enough honor he will refuse to commit seppuku - and so would you if you were the vassal. It will however decrease his honor so the next time he might not be able to reject the demand.

yep ,this is kinda game breaking ,i mean what were the programers thinking when they let the vassals refuse sepukku?

Even if this was a bug - which it isn't - it would be far from "game breaking". If the refusal of committing seppuku for some reason doesn't reduce his honor - then that is a bug.

 

[Drakken]

Although I would agree with you, Captain Gars, seppuku is a bit of an extreme case here. If I were a vassal and my Lord would ask me to commit seppuku for no reason and commit the foolish mistake of still allowing me to walk around freely, I would rebel, hole myself in my castle, or defect immediately. And it has happened, a few samurai like Araki Murashige did defect like a coward to escape Nobunaga's wrath and and left his family to be destroyed.

If I were a Japanese warlord and my vassal refused to commit seppuku, I would come with my army to raze his castle and have his whole family, children included, crucified.

Most vassals committed suicide on request because they were cornered, and not doing so would mean the annihilation of their whole clan. It's not the same as a vassal refusing to cede this castle or dissolve that army. It's a vassal refusing to die so that his clan lives. It's a direct affront to a Lord's face when he asks him "Please die, you no-good idiot."

Ask repeatedly a Vassal to commit seppuku until he is forced to do so, with no consequence, is a little weird. Even STW2 has leaders immediately becoming ronin or rebelling if they refused to commit suicide for their Lord.

 

[Captain Gars]

Although I would agree with you, Captain Gars, seppuku is a bit of an extreme case here. If I were a vassal and my Lord would ask me to commit seppuku for no reason and commit the foolish mistake of still allowing me to walk around freely, I would rebel or defect immediately. If I were a Japanese warlord and my vassal refused to commit seppuku, I would come with my army to raze his castle and have his whole family, children included, crucified.

Most vassals committed suicide on request because they were cornered, and not doing so would mean the annihilation of their whole clan. It's not the same as a vassal refusing to cede this castle or dissolve that army. It's a vassal refusing to die so that his clan lives. It's a direct affront to a Lord's face when he asks "Please die."

Ask repeatedly a Vassal to commit seppuku until he is forced to do so, with no consequence, is a little weird. Even STW2 has leaders immediately becoming ronin or rebelling if they refused to commit suicide for their Lord.

Problem is this: Have a vassal who doesn't like you. Ask him to commit seppuku. He says no and rebels. Take his province. Give it to someone who likes you. Rinse and repeat, and keep each vassal small enough so that he makes no threat if he would ever rebel.

Getting someone to commit seppuku should rarely take more than two requests. If he has higher honor than that, then it doesn't sound like he should be in a situation where you have a "legitimate" reason to ask him. If he's been exposed in a plot, or caught sending ninjas there are penalties which should have lowered his honor. Asking him to commit seppuku does also give him a great relation hit against you which should encourage him in to rebellion - like breaking free or start a civil war to try and usurp your clan leader title.

 

[Drakken]

Problem is this: Have a vassal who doesn't like you. Ask him to commit seppuku. He says no and rebels. Take his province. Give it to someone who likes you. Rinse and repeat, and keep each vassal small enough so that he makes no threat if he would ever rebel.

How about that each seppuku request gives a cumulative malus in relationship with all vassals for a few years? That way, requesting it too often would make your vassals loath you more, and they'll begin to plot your demise, while requesting it once would make your vassals a bit disquiet, but not that much in the end.

 

[XerWolf]

I would prefer it if he either agreed to my wishes or tried to rebel instantly. If he can't rebel because he is too small, he should try to seek shelter with another liege.

 

[Elusivehonor]

I would prefer it if he either agreed to my wishes or tried to rebel instantly. If he can't rebel because he is too small, he should try to seek shelter with another liege.

Gotta agree with that. I was a bit surprised when I asked one of my vassals to commit suicide, and, after saying no, decided to remain with me while I could not force the issue besides spamming the request.

I don't know...I think this should be looked into again. Surely there is a way for an AI lord to go to war with you solely for the purpose to making your main char commit seppuku.

Or maybe the refusal should just be an instant rebel, and even could fire which would allow you to take their lands and burn their castle (giving an honor hit), or just forcing that particular character to commit seppuku.

In either case, I'm sure there is a better solution than to just continue asking. Afterall, when a lord asked you to commit seppuku, he wasn't really asking.

 

[Enravota]

I would prefer it if he either agreed to my wishes or tried to rebel instantly. If he can't rebel because he is too small, he should try to seek shelter with another liege.

AFAIK seppukus were non refusable historically. To not carry it out, means declaring rebellion on the liege. If caught such individual in the best case would be forced to commit seppuku (sometimes they were not given a sword to disembowel themselves, but a fan for ritualistic purposes, with the second just beheading them) or worse being executed and their family disinherited (and may also be executed). Usually most people chose seppuku over utter ruin of their family and retainers (which may come regardless). Ordering and refusing seppuku is serious business for both parties. So hopefully seppuku will be more severe in a future patch or expansion.

 

[Blxz]

How about that each seppuku request gives a cumulative malus in relationship with all vassals for a few years? That way, requesting it too often would make your vassals loath you more, and they'll begin to plot your demise, while requesting it once would make your vassals a bit disquiet, but not that much in the end.

This is good, I agree that a lord asking anyone to commit seppuku was not a good sign for the others. It should lead to a considerable relations hit for everyone. Not least becasue the lord's authority has also been hit by the vassal's refusal.

This may actually bring in more strategy to the whole Seppuku/Monastary/Ignore strategy.

 

[Wampbit]

How about that each seppuku request gives a cumulative malus in relationship with all vassals for a few years? That way, requesting it too often would make your vassals loath you more, and they'll begin to plot your demise, while requesting it once would make your vassals a bit disquiet, but not that much in the end.

I too have to agree with this, I think that could be a good solution to a bit of gameplay that feels far too rigid and unrealistic.

 

[Peonage]

Problem is this: Have a vassal who doesn't like you. Ask him to commit seppuku. He says no and rebels. Take his province. Give it to someone who likes you. Rinse and repeat, and keep each vassal small enough so that he makes no threat if he would ever rebel.

Getting someone to commit seppuku should rarely take more than two requests. If he has higher honor than that, then it doesn't sound like he should be in a situation where you have a "legitimate" reason to ask him. If he's been exposed in a plot, or caught sending ninjas there are penalties which should have lowered his honor. Asking him to commit seppuku does also give him a great relation hit against you which should encourage him in to rebellion - like breaking free or start a civil war to try and usurp your clan leader title.

I found that it took more thank two requests sometimes but that doesn't matter. The easiest thing to do is to make sure that if he refuses and you can't do much against him yet, keep giving land to other vassals or create more vassals. Then, once he gets tired of being told to die and causes a civil war, your strength is high enough to crush him and reward the loyal retainers and to continue on with your quest for the Shogunate.

 

[unmerged(85507)]

Problem is this: Have a vassal who doesn't like you. Ask him to commit seppuku. He says no and rebels. Take his province. Give it to someone who likes you. Rinse and repeat, and keep each vassal small enough so that he makes no threat if he would ever rebel.

If a player behaves like this he should get severe honour penalties himself and cause an overall rebellion more likely. I mean it is possible to make a difference between seppuku requests that are justified from a neutral perspective and those that are not.

 

[womble]

I too have to agree with this, I think that could be a good solution to a bit of gameplay that feels far too rigid and unrealistic.

If the vassal was deeply dishonourable (but not quite enough to auto-suicide), the relationship hit could be less. Some direct proportionality would do it. So if a player clan head orders a very honourable clan member to seppuku, the others would be outraged and might rebel, whereas if the vassal was a known scumbag, they'd be less affronted.

 

[The Farseer]

If you as a clan leader could raise your troops and attack vassals when you felt like it, it would be very overpowered and render internal diplomacy pretty much useless. It would also mean that an AI clan leader would do this against you if you played a vassal, which I think most players wouldn't enjoy as it basically would mean game over. If a vassal has enough honor he will refuse to commit seppuku - and so would you if you were the vassal. It will however decrease his honor so the next time he might not be able to reject the demand.

Have them rebel and have a massive stackable malus on relations with other characters come from murdering your own vassals. As well as an honour malus.