Hello again folks, I do believe it is time for another dev diary!

We've basically covered most of the features in the game by now, so I thought I'd change tack and talk a bit about what we've been up to in the last week. Much of the focus lately has been on war and peace, both the rules and the AI behaviour. I am pleased to report that we've now got vassals within the same realm fighting each other like the vicious bastards they are.

We have also changed the rules a bit - vassals are now allowed to declare war on independent rulers, but independent rulers still cannot declare war on vassals. Thus, we now have William of Normandy as a vassal of France while invading England on his own. An unforeseen consequence of this is that he now tends to call in his father-in-law, another French vassal, Duke Boudewijn of Flandres to help him out. Marriage matters folks, and don't you forget it!

On a related note, Duchess Matilde of Tuscany, vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor (and the most eligible bride in Europe), tends to open the game in 1066 with a rather bad move, attacking the Pope to seize Orvieto (which is de jure part of her Duchy of Spoleto.) Other times, the Pope usurps the title Duke of Spoleto, and then Matilde feels obliged to attempt to take it back.

Either way, the unfortunate Duchess tends to get a rather nasty surprise. She has forgotten an important lesson that you might remember from an earlier diary - the Pope gets taxes from loyal bishops around Europe, making him a very, very rich man. So, while he has few levies of his own to raise, he can basically afford to hire every mercenary company in Europe! Even the mighty Holy Roman Emperor sometimes loses to the might of the Vatican.



...and there was much balancing.

Until next time!

 

[Alastor]

Second, as of now, there is _no_ restriction that prohibits you from attacking an ally. This needs to be balanced of course, but I think it's likely that the only limiting factor when attacking an ally will be relation and prestige penalties(there are certain other limits though, for instance you cannot attack your wife directly). There's certainly no need to kill your wife just because you want to attack her brother, but you will probably have to watch your back after doing so...

Thank you for clearing this up. Thats what I wanted to hear.

 

[Pallen]

It should be noted that an alliance in CK2 is not equivalent to an alliance in our other games.

First of all, when someone is attacked, allies are not automatically called into the war.
Second, as of now, there is _no_ restriction that prohibits you from attacking an ally. This needs to be balanced of course, but I think it's likely that the only limiting factor when attacking an ally will be relation and prestige penalties(there are certain other limits though, for instance you cannot attack your wife directly). There's certainly no need to kill your wife just because you want to attack her brother, but you will probably have to watch your back after doing so...

So, what are allies in CK2 then? Allies are simply characters which you can call into a war. This includes members of you dynasty and your siblings, as well as people close connected through marriages.

Also, if you don't have strong enough allies when you want to take someone down, you might want to consider plotting against them instead. Certain plots will allow you to invite people, and once the plot is executed, these people will join your side in the war.

So we get plots a little like Sengoku?

 

[mp84]

Thank you for the Clarification on that too, if possible is there any chance my question can be answered, if of course you feel it doesn't reveal to much, if it does, or you can't answer it, understandable.

As overall I am curious to when the alliance can be dissolved, (So I don't get that prestige hit/penalty if I do declare war on that dynasty)

So, is an alliance with another Dynasty considered dissolved when?

A) The moment your Daughter passes away to the Dynasty she married into?
B) After all characters with any direction relation to your Daughter (meaning any off-spring she would have) in that same Dynasty, pass away?

Just look back on Pg 4 for my specific example I gave please .

thank you,

MP

 

[Grayfox]

Can someone clarify my understanding of a few points for me? I would appreciate it!

Externally, war can only be declared on an independent, whether it's another Kingdom or an independent Duchy or County. The King of France can't declare war on the Duke of Saxony while he's a part of Germany, he must declare war on the King of Germany. If this is correct? What about for lower vassals. Could the Duke of Aquitane (as part of France) attack the Duchy of Barcelona (as part of Aragon)? Would he instead also have to declare war on the Kingdom of Aragon? If so, would he be able to call his King for help (assuming no relation/marriage), or is this his mess now?

Slightly unrelated, but can you have two (or more) lieges?

 

[Subcomandante]

Externally, war can only be declared on an independent, whether it's another Kingdom or an independent Duchy or County. The King of France can't declare war on the Duke of Saxony while he's a part of Germany, he must declare war on the King of Germany. If this is correct?

Yes. It is like deccing the duke of Saxony in CKI, but now the King of Germany is automatically involved too. What the king actually does (or can do) to stop you is another matter though.

What about for lower vassals. Could the Duke of Aquitane (as part of France) attack the Duchy of Barcelona (as part of Aragon)? Would he instead also have to declare war on the Kingdom of Aragon? If so, would he be able to call his King for help (assuming no relation/marriage), or is this his mess now?

The duke of Aquitaine cannot dec the Duke of Barcelona without being at war with Aragon. As far as is written at the moment, he might be able to involve his liege into the war through a plot. How plots work exactly is unclear atm, but I think you can plot with people who have good view of you or have the same interests as you. We know that it is possible for say a disinherited son to plot against the father together with friends. It is advantageous to take part in plots that immediately benefit your friends because then you have friends with power. Always good.

Slightly unrelated, but can you have two (or more) lieges?

Nope.

 

[Orinsul]

It should be noted that an alliance in CK2 is not equivalent to an alliance in our other games.

First of all, when someone is attacked, allies are not automatically called into the war.
Second, as of now, there is _no_ restriction that prohibits you from attacking an ally. This needs to be balanced of course, but I think it's likely that the only limiting factor when attacking an ally will be relation and prestige penalties(there are certain other limits though, for instance you cannot attack your wife directly). There's certainly no need to kill your wife just because you want to attack her brother, but you will probably have to watch your back after doing so...

So, what are allies in CK2 then? Allies are simply characters which you can call into a war. This includes members of you dynasty and your siblings, as well as people close connected through marriages.

Also, if you don't have strong enough allies when you want to take someone down, you might want to consider plotting against them instead. Certain plots will allow you to invite people, and once the plot is executed, these people will join your side in the war.

Good to hear it. this post should have been the DD

 

[Filip de Norre]

It should be noted that an alliance in CK2 is not equivalent to an alliance in our other games.

First of all, when someone is attacked, allies are not automatically called into the war.
Second, as of now, there is _no_ restriction that prohibits you from attacking an ally. This needs to be balanced of course, but I think it's likely that the only limiting factor when attacking an ally will be relation and prestige penalties(there are certain other limits though, for instance you cannot attack your wife directly). There's certainly no need to kill your wife just because you want to attack her brother, but you will probably have to watch your back after doing so...

So, what are allies in CK2 then? Allies are simply characters which you can call into a war. This includes members of you dynasty and your siblings, as well as people close connected through marriages.

Also, if you don't have strong enough allies when you want to take someone down, you might want to consider plotting against them instead. Certain plots will allow you to invite people, and once the plot is executed, these people will join your side in the war.

Honestly I can't understand the people claiming that this will ruin the game. I think it sounds terrific. It's realistic IMHO that some weak count can ask the HRE (his uncle, cousin or relative of some sort) to help him out in a war, because he would have asked for help. If help arrives is another matter

How many strong and enduring alliance in medieval times were not based upon family relations? Few AFAIK. The plots seem to handle the temporary alliances of common interest perfectly.

I know which game I'm playing for a long long part of 2012

- Sycophant and proud of it

 

[Brent15]

I do have some shared concerns about the family-only alliances. Tegus post above helped me understand the approach a little better but it makes me wonder if close friends should also be automatic allies.

I'm just trying to fit this into my understanding of the time period. Surely we could agree that alliances weren't only and strictly between family.

 

[Nick B II]

I'm just trying to fit this into my understanding of the time period. Surely we could agree that alliances weren't only and strictly between family.

I can't think of any in-period. There were ad hoc alliances, and family alliances. Vassal-liege relationships have strong similarities to alliances. But vassal-liege relationships aren't between equals. And ad hoc alliances, such as the Auld Alliance, should be present through plots.

Which means the only alliances that CK2 should include that aren't in there as part of the Plots feature are family alliances.

Of course we have no idea exactly how the plots will work, because the DD planned a few months ago didn't materialize, but hey.

Nick

 

[John Forseti]

I can't think of any in-period.

Henry V of England and Philip III of Burgundy?

 

[lemonsquid]

nor will your vassals mind that their liege is a wife slaying, ally-attacking monster.

you made me laugh for a solid 5 mins.

But, so far, everything sounds like itll be set into place nicely, im looking foward to this game. Also wondered if it may be an issue that I look at the screenshots for an hour at a time?

 

[Filip de Norre]

Henry V of England and Philip III of Burgundy?

Plot to attack France?

Perhaps friends, as earlier mentioned should be alliances as well. But as far as I can tell, alliances is more like a bunch of people you can ask to join you, not depend on joining before a war. Plots seem to take care of coordinating large attacks where you can count on several others as they are in the plot as well. And hopefully the chance of getting a relative to join is higher the closer he or she is to you.

 

[Nick B II]

Henry V of England and Philip III of Burgundy?

Simulated in CK2 as a Vassal-liege relationship. Henry V was a claimant to the French throne, and thus in CK2's Civil War system his game mechanics will be identical to those of the Capetians who won the war.

I'm looking for an alliance between two states of equal level that was more then a Plot against some third state. For example in modern times if France and Scotland are allied and Norway attacks Scotland France would be honor-bound to intervene, but it's not clear to me that the Auld Alliance would have been activated by such a conflict. Which means a never-ending centuries long plot against England probably simulates it better then an EU-3 style Alliance treaty.

Nick

 

[Filip de Norre]

I'm looking for an alliance between two states of equal level that was more then a Plot against some third state. For example in modern times if France and Scotland are allied and Norway attacks Scotland France would be honor-bound to intervene, but it's not clear to me that the Auld Alliance would have been activated by such a conflict. Which means a never-ending centuries long plot against England probably simulates it better then an EU-3 style Alliance treaty.

It will sure be interesting to see if partners in plots are allies if the target of the plot attacks first.

 

[Sir William]

Simulated in CK2 as a Vassal-liege relationship. Henry V was a claimant to the French throne, and thus in CK2's Civil War system his game mechanics will be identical to those of the Capetians who won the war.

I'm looking for an alliance between two states of equal level that was more then a Plot against some third state. For example in modern times if France and Scotland are allied and Norway attacks Scotland France would be honor-bound to intervene, but it's not clear to me that the Auld Alliance would have been activated by such a conflict. Which means a never-ending centuries long plot against England probably simulates it better then an EU-3 style Alliance treaty.

Nick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Mongol_alliance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance

Two examples I can think of. I do agree with how Paradox is doing alliances with marriage though, it makes sense.

 

[ramblymanguthri]

I think it's good as well. Plots take the place of alliances you enter for aggressive reasons, and who to marry becomes a real choice and not just a quest to find another lustful/indulgent(/other fertility raiser) 16 year old, not even caring what family she belonged to.

I kinda think it would be better if you could call on friends to defend you as well, though. It would make sense, at least.

Also, did anyone answer for how long the alliance stays active? For example, what is a son's relationship to his mother's family? And his child's in turn?

 

[Darkrenown]

A) The moment your Daughter passes away to the Dynasty she married into?
B) After all characters with any direction relation to your Daughter (meaning any off-spring she would have) in that same Dynasty, pass away?

Just look back on Pg 4 for my specific example I gave please .

Children get their father's dynasty, so the alliance would be over when the daughter of the French King died.

 

[Joelainen]

But if your family is your alliance, you have an alliance with your brother, but when would the alliance end? when he is dead or when his child is dead or would it end with his grandchild?

I mean I don't want to have random alliances just becouse my great great great great grand father was the brother to someone today king in Spain

 

[3inar]

Isent the papal states a bitt overpowered? Or have you made it so that they play by a bitt different rules like not going for conquest of regions rather than spreading the faith and gaining money and power(not by conquering). I might be wrong but the papal states dident go conquering land around europe at this time? I know they owned lots of land but conquer it, id think they more forced/threatened to gett lands of lords with no heirs etc.?

Thanks in advance!

 

[InboxMadness]

Speaking of war mechanics, are you saying that the defender can only demand status quo or revoking claims even if he manages to turn the tide of war and decimate the attacker?