Revoke title Tragedy

[GShock]

As it stands now I am proposing a modification (I know I am a pain but I think more than I play)...

I just found out a plot directed against me and one of the plotters was one of my Daymios. Now with the exposing of this plot he should lose some more honor. The honor lost by the character should be tied to the number of territories he holds.

Considering I have proposed the immediate motion of all Kokujins of the same Kuni under the control of the Daymio of that Kuni as soon as he's named, the honor loss for a Kokujin who plots should be 10 for each of his territories but in case the plotter is a Daymio, the honor lost should be 10 for each of his territories and 5 for each of his vassals' territories.

This guy has a high honor and I can't revoke his titles because I lose more honor than he does when asking him (which is totally insane, really) but if you don't take advantage of the honor loss with the exposure you'll never get the hang of him. I know, ninja can be a bliss but when a Liege goes asking his vassal for his title, the vassal refusing should lose a LOT of honor and then be forced to either declare war or go for the seppuku.

I just tried and I dropped to near seppuku before he started handing out titles. This thing as it is now can't stand. I am the liege and he's supposed to obey but if he doesn't I've basically got to suicide when in reality it was all the other way around, including the fact if he doesn't cope and doesn't suicide *I* should be allowed to declare war on him and take those lands I want by force.

Just an idea... the 10/5 is a guess, just a number to be tested and taylored but I wouldn't know how else to solve this problem. When you are in a big war, you get dozens of people asking for titles and you don't always realize who you're giving titles to.

Another thing I hated in this game which I'm just restarting is the fact despite having a 10 intrigue master of arts AND searching for ninjas, I couldn't find any for years (not even bad ones). Hosokawa sent something like 20 ninjas until my only heir was killed and that sucked big time. You know why they keep sending them? Because the honor loss when discovered is just too low.

It's all about finding a good honor balance.

 

[Hister]

This guy has a high honor and I can't revoke his titles because I lose more honor than he does when asking him (which is totally insane, really) but if you don't take advantage of the honor loss with the exposure you'll never get the hang of him. I know, ninja can be a bliss but when a Liege goes asking his vassal for his title, the vassal refusing should lose a LOT of honor and then be forced to either declare war or go for the seppuku.

That is indeed the only proper solution for such occasion! All other solutions are not logical nor realistic.

It's all about finding a good honor balance.

This you or anyone else can balance out by yourself - the values in question can be changed/modded already. It would be sweet if players would come up with a value which works and thus help devs speed up the process.

So which files are we talking about here and which lines/values need to be changed? We can assign few players each with his own given value to playtest the game under such conditions and see how the game plays out by reporting in this thread. I'm just waiting for the directions what I need to change and I can playtest.

 

[autumnTwilight]

I had a similar situation with an out of control vassal, but I solved it by sending ninjas to kill him. His heir had quite a bit less honor and made the situation a lot easier to work with.

One thing I would like to see is that the honor loss for having ninja missions discovered scale to the type of mission they were sent on or potentially against the target of the mission. I would think getting caught sending ninjas to kill a clan leader would be a bit more dishonorable than weakening the defenses of a province.

 

[Hister]

I would think getting caught sending ninjas to kill a clan leader would be a bit more dishonorable than weakening the defenses of a province.

+1

 

[GShock]

I caught Hosokawa's ninjas so many times he should have committed seppuku with a sp00n!

I am at a loss I have no idea where to put my hands in with the S files... We need a good modder to solve what can be solved without harassing the DEVs.
I think a "hot line" with a DEV in the mod sections would help. If some pious soul volounteers for the job and the DEV instructs him, I will be in the front line with testing the new parameters.

 

[James_Manring]

I caught Hosokawa's ninjas so many times he should have committed seppuku with a sp00n!

I am at a loss I have no idea where to put my hands in with the S files... We need a good modder to solve what can be solved without harassing the DEVs.
I think a "hot line" with a DEV in the mod sections would help. If some pious soul volounteers for the job and the DEV instructs him, I will be in the front line with testing the new parameters.

I agree with this! It makes me sick that I can have a Theatre and a high level master searching for ninja clans there and come up empty for years, but have ninja clans attack me at a rate of 3 or 4 a month. If I cannot even hire protection, the system seems VERY broken.

At an rate, you should not need to use ninja on your vassals. If he refuses you, there should be an option to demand seppuku in reply for no honor loss to you and an honor loss of 20 or 30 if he denies or the option to attack him in a civil war.

 

[autumnTwilight]

The ninja system, as I understand it, goes something like this,

There are a set number of ninja clans available in the game. Each one will "randomly" be available to a different province for a set amount of time. Building theaters, having high stats, and searching for ninjas will shift the randomness somewhat in your favor. For instance a 1000% bonus makes it roughly 10 times more likely that ninja will appear in a given province. If all the other clans are building theaters and actively searching, it will essentially bring everything back to a level playing field, or at least that is how I perceive it.

The issue seems to be that you only have 5ish provinces to recruit from and there is only 20 ninja clans available the entire game. I would imagine that going to ninjas.txt in the commons folder and just adding another 20 or 40 ninja clans (very simple modification) would increase the occurrence of ninjas.

 

[Nefaro]

The issue seems to be that you only have 5ish provinces to recruit from and there is only 20 ninja clans available the entire game. I would imagine that going to ninjas.txt in the commons folder and just adding another 20 or 40 ninja clans (very simple modification) would increase the occurrence of ninjas.

While that workaround may end up giving the player more ninja opportunities on average, it will also give his enemies (who are already spamming loads of ninjas) even more.

 

[GShock]

As I said it's all about honor but in this case also about costs. Increasing Ninja costs and multiplying 5 times the honor loss in case of failure would be great.

 

[James_Manring]

Does the AI get a different bonus for hiring Ninja? If so the balance should be adjusted. That way they would be a viable method of reducing honor for the player, instead of being constantly spammed by enemy ninja and never having the chance to hire them. It can be very hard to revoke a title without them or the option to go to war over it.

 

[Birken]

Does the AI get a different bonus for hiring Ninja? If so the balance should be adjusted. That way they would be a viable method of reducing honor for the player, instead of being constantly spammed by enemy ninja and never having the chance to hire them. It can be very hard to revoke a title without them or the option to go to war over it.

No, the ai gets the same. When you're the target of several other clans (as will be the case if you're playing to win), it may seem that that way though I guess.

If the honor cost was too great, then players would get zero-honor = game over too often. It's less of a problem for the ai, but it'd would probably make the game more chaotic.

The honor cost suggestion from the original post would be greater than 50 for most cases (ie you hold 5 provinces and have at least one vassal). This would practically disable plotting, or create situations were players save/reloaded all the time and the ai never plotted.

That said.

You can just mod the costs yourselves.
Each ninja mission has a money cost that is multiplied by an aggregate value based on the stealth and ability of the clan. Raise those.
Exposing plots spawn executes an effect that spawn events, either of those can be modded to raise honor costs.
Honor loss from failed ninja attempts are controlled by events (look in on action event file to get id:s). You can control the honor loss from each individual mission independently.

 

[corenoone]

You can just mod the costs yourselves.
Each ninja mission has a money cost that is multiplied by an aggregate value based on the stealth and ability of the clan. Raise those.
Exposing plots spawn executes an effect that spawn events, either of those can be modded to raise honor costs.
Honor loss from failed ninja attempts are controlled by events (look in on action event file to get id:s). You can control the honor loss from each individual mission independently.

Can we mod the bonus to finding ninja from Master of the Guard, or the bonus given by a theatre to increase the frequency of ninjas?

 

[Birken]

Can we mod the bonus to finding ninja from Master of the Guard, or the bonus given by a theatre to increase the frequency of ninjas?

Yes, in the building and councillor action files.
You can also add your own province modifiers that increases the chances and such...

 

[GShock]

If the honor cost was too great, then players would get zero-honor = game over too often. It's less of a problem for the ai, but it'd would probably make the game more chaotic.

The honor cost suggestion from the original post would be greater than 50 for most cases (ie you hold 5 provinces and have at least one vassal). This would practically disable plotting, or create situations were players save/reloaded all the time and the ai never plotted.

It's just a suggestion Birken... As long as the player revoking gets LESS honor penalty than his vassal DENYING the title all will be fine.
In compensation, the Attitude towards the Liege should change accordingly, then YES, the Liege can take the title but the vassal may secede and that's a pretty good solution as compared to now where it's the player taking the bigger honor hit of the two when revoking the titles.

Of course before the honor loss can be given for the EXPOSING of the plotters you must find the plot out.

 

[unmerged(382543)]

Two ideas:
If a vassal doesn't use a ninja clan in the first half of it's duration it could become available to the clan leader. This would increase the arsenal of the people that really have money to spend while still allowing for internal missions.

If vassals ever send ninja after enemy clans maybe there should be some vague message about ninja returning to your lands after devious activity. This would make the clan feel bigger once you've got a few vassals and relieve some of this "that jerk has like a thousand ninja while I never get any" sentiment.

 

[unmerged(411488)]

@Gshock,

There might be no problem with the game mechanics at all, it's a matter of understanding what the game is trying to convey through the honor concept. In your case, you had less honor than your vassal, so relative to him, you are the Bad Guy (TM), with less respect from everyone in the world. Your vassal is actually more popular and 'righteous' than you, even though you are his lord. So when he sends his ninja to you, the world thinks, "jolly good!".

And when you out his plot, it still costs you more honor to demand his title, because, again, he's being the righteous chap in refusing the Bad Guy (TM). With less honor, you are cast (relatively) as the snobbish, flippant, arrogant etc guy lording over your poor vassals.

So, IMHO, there's nothing wrong with costing more honor for your character. I guess a solution is to lower his honor, improve your honor....or just send the ninjas!

 

[GShock]

It's not about the solutions.
As clan leader I may be crap but he's my vassal and he CANT refuse my demands unless he pays a salted price.
In our case the clan leader pays MORE honor than he does.

This means that even when both honor levels are the same the clan leader will dishonor himself by DEMANDING his land back MORE than his vassal refusing the request and this is U N A C C E P T A B L E.
This function needs to be rendered better. Lots of options but as it is now, it doesn't stand the trial of logics.

 

[unmerged(411488)]

it's a culture thing. don't compare the relationship btwn lord and vassal as a military structure, where almost always only the subordinate suffers if an order is disobeyed. It's more of an interpersonal relationship.

for e.g., if I gave u a xmas gift and then demanded it back, and u refused, we both lose honor/respect because I did something that's just not nice, and u didn't do me the favor. it doesn't matter if we have equal honor to begin with, because I did something that's frowned upon.

On the other hand, if I had more honor, I could get away with less penalty because people just liked me more and gave me more benefit of the doubt (e.g.'he must have accidentally given away an heirloom, the poor chap.')

 

[unmerged(46341)]

Indeed that's one of the big differences between japanese fuedalism and european fuedalism. A japanese lord of this period was heavily beholden to his vassals.

 

[Birken]

It's not about the solutions.
As clan leader I may be crap but he's my vassal and he CANT refuse my demands unless he pays a salted price.
In our case the clan leader pays MORE honor than he does.

This means that even when both honor levels are the same the clan leader will dishonor himself by DEMANDING his land back MORE than his vassal refusing the request and this is U N A C C E P T A B L E.
This function needs to be rendered better. Lots of options but as it is now, it doesn't stand the trial of logics.

As stated previously, it's easy to mod. But I think this would dumb down the game. The liege-vassal relation is an important aspect of the game and some actions are only worth taking if your vassal is truly dishonorable. The clan leader is not an absolute monarch.