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Cernu

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Oct 18, 2011
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What I call strategic combat is when the fighting goes on the world map (Like CIV series).

What I call tactical combat is when the fighting goes on a zoomed in, hopefully randomized tactical map (like MoM, Elemental...)

Am I the only one to pray for a tactical map ?
 
I'm a huge fan of tactical combat, especially the way it was done in the AoW series (more complex than in, say, the HoMM games), so I hope to see this in Warlock as well. I'm not convinced that this will happen, though. The screenshots we have seen so far all point more toward the Civ approach. I'd still enjoy the game, but would be extra thrilled about the added complexity of a tactical layer.
 
Well, if we're getting tactical combat, we'll have to get multi-unit tiles. No point in doing tactical combat with 1 vs 1 ;)
 
Well, it could use the Age of Wonders Rule of Hexes...

...but even so, 3v4 doesn't allow for much variety on the battlefield.

I think these questions are really tied up in one another. You can't realistically have meaningful TBMs with 1UPT. Personally, I'd like to see TBMs, but I can see it working without.
 
I think it's already decided, but I'm sure grand-scale tactics is much better option for a strategy. Warlords is a great game, but it's principle of single battle you have little control of with instant death (even more so in Civilization or Galactic Civilization) is not so great. Guys have a great experience in panzer general-style tactics - grand-scale battles, special abilities, units have health and you can calculate what happens after battle. Seriously, go check Elven Legacy, it's a beautiful oldschool game.
 
Buladelu said:
but it's principle of single battle you have little control of with instant death is not so great.

That's actually intentional and the point of the game. You get your stack bonuses before the battle and let it rip and hope for the best that the "dice rolls" are good to you.
 
That's actually intentional and the point of the game. You get your stack bonuses before the battle and let it rip and hope for the best that the "dice rolls" are good to you.

I don't know. I love HoI3 because I know what's going to happen when I hit a full infantry corps with no AT with an armored division. The fun comes from... strategy! Having the right units in the right places at the right times, and reacting to instances when the enemy pulls that off against you. Second-guessing his moves.

If the guy playing GB builds a lot of carriers, etc expecting Sea Lion, and I ignore the oceans entirely in favor of prep for Barbgarossa, that creates drama as GB player realizes his mistake and tries to rush support to the SU before Germany annihilates his army. It'll also create a situation where Japan may be put out in '43, since it lacks an ability to defend its home islands.
 
but it's principle of single battle you have little control of with instant death (even more so in Civilization or Galactic Civilization) is not so great.
I'm not all that familiar with Warlords, to be honest. I played a bit of #2 (the 1993 version) and don't recall it having a tactical baattle map at all - just throw the stacks together and it all gets worked out in automated fast combat.

Master of Magic and Age of Wonders didn't have that - usually, if one unit kills another in one go, the other unit didn't have a chance in the first place (although this is less the case in Age of Wonders 1 than the others).

There is such a thing as too much randomness, of course, but there can also be room for some tactical as well as strategic maneouvering.
 
I assume we're talking the turn-based Warlords (especially since the '93 version is mentioned) as I don't have any experience with the RTS Warlords Battlecry series.

I've played the first three Warlords extensively (not so much the 4th one though) and follow it in a couple of Warlords forums (well, one now since Infinite Interactive got sold to Firemint and the forums went down) and have read a number of Steve Fawkner's posts about design and suggestions for future Warlords and he said that the simple stack with bonuses and then just fighting it out is intentional. That's one of the reason why you fight to the death - you're Warlords who conquer all, no prisoners! :) Obviously if you want your (fantasy) battles to be more tactical and want to intervene during combat, there's games for that, but Warlords was intended to be pretty simple. Warlords IV changed it up a little by allowing you to choose which unit to fight next in the stack, but that met mixed reviews by previous Warlords players :)
 
Obviously if you want your (fantasy) battles to be more tactical and want to intervene during combat, there's games for that, but Warlords was intended to be pretty simple. Warlords IV changed it up a little by allowing you to choose which unit to fight next in the stack, but that met mixed reviews by previous Warlords players :)

Yeah, I'm talking exactly about this system. You can choose who attacks next or cast some spell and that's it. Everything depends on your army "deck" and abilities. And there were abilities like hydra's "attack everybody", assassin's "chance of instakill" or archer's "shoot even if you're not fighting" which they couldn't balance in the end, so my typical army in campaign consisted of hero with leadership (buff to our troops), another hero with fear (debuff to enemy troops), crazy vampire hydra and everybody else was archer or healer. And all of the remaining armies consisted of cheap assassins, each of those had 5% chance of instant kill so they could sometimes greatly hurt even powerful units. As there was no resurrection (at least no cheap availible resurrection you can build your strategy own) my hydra-led army became more and more powerful and no army could do anything to it.

That's the example of dangers of fast-paced battles. Warlords are oriented on strategy, but everything is decided by tactics. You can lose all your elite troops in one turn (and you may just as well end game cause enemy gained billions of XP from them) or invent some army structure that will kill everybody on map and eat their guts. On the other hand Civilization 4 gives you nice percentage of your suckiness compared to enemy awesomeness, which is very close to Warlords 4 system, but even faster and even more streamlined. Civilization 5 gives you the same percentages, but there are shooting units, artillery etc. But ideal strategy battle system lies in our glorious past, in panzer/fantasy general. Units fight right on strategy map, they beat the HP out of each other, but each fight is not "till death". Imagine Heroes 3 battles, but every unit is a single unit (not 1000 dragons in 1) and this map is global. Main difference from Age of Wonders are hexes (with squares you have 8 adjacent squares, with hexes just 6 so it's easier to plan) and scale (units usually don't attack or move far in one turn). I'm almost sure of this concepce being used in a game as this guy's Elven Legacy was all about it and it rocked so go get it damn you.
 
And there were abilities like hydra's "attack everybody", assassin's "chance of instakill" or archer's "shoot even if you're not fighting" which they couldn't balance in the end, so my typical army in campaign consisted of hero with leadership (buff to our troops), another hero with fear (debuff to enemy troops), crazy vampire hydra and everybody else was archer or healer. And all of the remaining armies consisted of cheap assassins, each of those had 5% chance of instant kill so they could sometimes greatly hurt even powerful units. As there was no resurrection (at least no cheap availible resurrection you can build your strategy own) my hydra-led army became more and more powerful and no army could do anything to it.

I guess this is in Warlords IV? 'Cause I don't remember anything like that in Warlords III. :) And in single-player?

I could probably mention that strategy on the Warlords forum I'm on since I've never read about it before :)
 
I guess this is in Warlords IV? 'Cause I don't remember anything like that in Warlords III. :) And in single-player?

I could probably mention that strategy on the Warlords forum I'm on since I've never read about it before :)

Later I said that's about Warlords 4 and everybody I know figured out something like this strategy, differences were only in details, like should mass-attacking tank have regeneration or vampirism or how much exactly archers should you have, do you need someone with blessing or curse etc. I don't think multiplayer would be interesting there, but honestly I think the only TBS games with interesting multiplayer are Heroes 5 in duel mode or Battle for Wesnoth - otherwise you get extremely long and boring expiriense of waiting enemy to death.
 
What I call strategic combat is when the fighting goes on the world map (Like CIV series).

What I call tactical combat is when the fighting goes on a zoomed in, hopefully randomized tactical map (like MoM, Elemental...)

Tactics vs. Strategy doesn't neccesarily mean small-scale vs. large-scale. It means individual actions vs. long-term policy. In Civilisation, for example, your tactics consist of the specific units you recruit and the specific cities/improvements you decide to found/build/raze/conquer in particular locations, whereas your strategy consists of the technologies you decide to research, overall tax levels, and whether you set out to win through conquest, diplomacy, culture, space-race, etc.

Most of what you do in Civilisation is already tactical, not strategic. Allowing for a detailed, zoomed-in tactical map within a single world-map Hex isn't adding tactics to a mostly-strategic game, it's adding more tactics to an already predominantly tactical game.
 
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Of course, one can argue that decisions about what to build in a particular city are are least partly strategic in nature, because once, say, a colosseum, airfield or library are built, they have long-term effects on citizen morale, tech output, or the kinds of units you can field within that city.

But in that case, what's happening within individual cities is actually more strategic than what happens within the world-map as a whole, where you move individual units and give specific orders that don't have intrinsic long-term effects. In other words, it's quite possible for the geographically small-scale to be strategic and the geographically large-scale to be tactical, rather than vice-versa.
 
Personally, I've always thought of it as strategy being setting out your goals (including the sub-goals that go towards achieving larger goals) and prioritising between them, while tactics are how you go about achieving your goals. So to use the Civ example, military conquest could be the overall goal, with a subgoal being to conquer a particular region, and further subgoals being scouting that region and producing a particular mix of units to conquer it. Tactics would then include the exact method of scouting, which cities to build the units you need, and sending them off to battle. This probably does a good job of explaining strategy.

This does naturally lead to tactics being generally smaller-scale while strategy is larger-scale, but even in a single battle you can have strategy - identifying which enemy units to kill or neutralise first, for instance. How you go about doing so is then tactics, and how you go about getting to the next battle is also tactical. (I think we both know what one of the most purely strategic games out there is, in that mostly all you can do is set priorities and hope your subjects use the right tactics to do it...)

I think the main concern here, though, is that the Warlock maps are looking a bit... cramped. Small cities are only a handful of tiles, and it looks like it's possible to have chokepoints a tile across - meaning there isn't much room to do much beyond sending your troops into the enemy and hoping they do well. Being limited to one unit per tile - as is looking more and more the case - as well as this cramped space also means that it's going to be hard to make full use of the wide range of units that will be available if Warlock uses even a fraction of the Majesty IP.
 
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Erfwood, I love it! :)
 
Of course, one can argue that decisions about what to build in a particular city are are least partly strategic in nature, because once, say, a colosseum, airfield or library are built, they have long-term effects on citizen morale, tech output, or the kinds of units you can field within that city.

Right. Pure strategy game would propably look like interactive fiction. You read a lot, compare some data and then say "Well, I think we should get ourselves some heavy industry and attack Poland, and also give some social care to medicine and schools". Or Majesty, if you think about it (although you still cast spells and place buildings). Also problem of every strategy game is that you're allpowerful dictator and your people are calm and obidient slaves even in EU (although in games like Civ it's not so obvious because of high level of abstraction).

But in case of combat I think we mean one simple thing: is there something player can affect after he decides to attack this particular army with this particular unit? I think for grand strategy Civilization 5's mix is the best option: you can use terrain, artillery or passive abilities of units and you are forced to fight with small armies so you can't win by having big horde of doom. And as this happens on big map and there's not much units you don't spend all your time on fighting like in Total War.
 
Buladelu said:
Right. Pure strategy game would propably look like interactive fiction. You read a lot, compare some data and then say "Well, I think we should get ourselves some heavy industry and attack Poland, and also give some social care to medicine and schools". Or Majesty, if you think about it (although you still cast spells and place buildings).
Indeed. I was actually thinking that a 'pure strategy' game like would probably be best done in realtime than as a turn-based. The point of turns is to give you the opportunity to go and deal with the fine structure of building construction and the rest yourself even in a large empire - if you're not dealing with that, it becomes much more feasible to do it all in real time.

Buladelu said:
Also problem of every strategy game is that you're allpowerful dictator and your people are calm and obidient slaves even in EU (although in games like Civ it's not so obvious because of high level of abstraction).

Actually, I've seen a few where it's important (or at least significant) to keep your people happy. In many cases (the 'Master of' series) this just applies to cities, and military forces will still follow your directions regardless, but the Age of Wonders series has morale for troops that can result in diminished combat performance or even desertion if you can't keep them happy.

When it comes to 'being forced to fight with small armies' - it can keep the disparity between a small garrison force and a killer offensive army smaller, but as long as there's a significant power distinction between weaker and stronger units you're still going to have the concept of the killer army versus the speedbump. And with only small groups being able to engage at once, that reduces the possibility for multiple weaker units to be able to bring down the stronger unit by ganging up.

Still, I think the biggest problem I'm having with what looks to be the current system is that with what appears to be 1UPT and each tile appearing to represent a fairly large area on the map (I think I have seen chokepoints just one hex wide), it really does seem to cut down the ability to build diversity in armies. Given the size that hexes appear to be, it doesn't seem realistic that archery and similar attacks would cross more than a single hex, so in the example of the 1-hex-wide chokepoint, if you want to push up that chokepoint you don't really have much in the way of options apart from sending up the best melee unit you can followed by a ranged unit, possibly backed with artillery that can reach three hexes or support spellcasters like clerics that can buff allies two hexes away behind.

The simplest solution in my mind might be to allow heterogenous forces in tiles. Instead of being limited to just eight warriors in a tile for a melee unit, for instance, make it possible to mix in a paladin or two (for buffs and undead destroying) and a couple of dwarves or rogues (to apply stuns and other debuffs) with the remaining warriors. Such a solution would allow combat to continue being fought on the strategic map (as it appears to from what we've seen) and keeping the current tile size without building a varied force becoming an endeavour that means your army is going to need to occupy half a dozen tiles, even if strictly speaking it's no bigger (and may even be smaller) in the number of troops it contains than the army of the guy who just decided to make a full tile each of Warriors and Clerics.
 
I guess this is in Warlords IV? 'Cause I don't remember anything like that in Warlords III. :) And in single-player?

I could probably mention that strategy on the Warlords forum I'm on since I've never read about it before :)

Battle system from Warlords 3 (Darklords Rising) was awesome. Quick, which is important in grand startegy game, yet complex enough to allow different approach to build/stack composition with different abilities, terrain bonuses, etc. Played countless hours in multiplayer - it was great game.