Dawn of Kingdoms

[Third Angel]

0.49 has been released. Please refer to first post for download link and changelog, and of course comments and suggestions, as well as new contributors for other parts of the world, are certainly most welcome.


Bordic, everything we agreed upon before post #169 should have been added, except for the MUS matter and the positions of the hard-to-select Italian cities, I just could not find the time. If you notice something else I forgot, please notify me. As of now you are only credited in the changelog, I hope this is allright and I am trying to find some elegant way to introduce you in the credits file for 0.5. I will try to have a look at the Provençal sequence tomorrow.

ConjurerDragon, quite an unexpected activity for someone who did not want to contribute . I will also try to adress your concerns I did not answer yet tomorrow.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

0.49 has been released. Please refer to first post for download link and changelog, and of course comments and suggestions, as well as new contributors for other parts of the world, are certainly most welcome.


Bordic, everything we agreed upon before post #169 should have been added, except for the MUS matter and the positions of the hard-to-select Italian cities, I just could not find the time. If you notice something else I forgot, please notify me. As of now you are only credited in the changelog, I hope this is allright and I am trying to find some elegant way to introduce you in the credits file for 0.5. I will try to have a look at the Provençal sequence tomorrow.

ConjurerDragon, quite an unexpected activity for someone who did not want to contribute . I will also try to adress your concerns I did not answer yet tomorrow.

That´s the result of me having two days off from work and AGCEEP taking it very slow due to only Garbon left to compile and several regulars rather working on transplanting AGCEEP to the WATKwhatevermap. ;-)

 

[Bordic]

Bordic, everything we agreed upon before post #169 should have been added, except for the MUS matter and the positions of the hard-to-select Italian cities, I just could not find the time.

For the use of MUS in post #146 see also in the "edit" of post #171. The MUS file is needed to trigger events when PAP and TOS in the Provençal sequence are not existant.

If you notice something else I forgot, please notify me. As of now you are only credited in the changelog, I hope this is allright and I am trying to find some elegant way to introduce you in the credits file for 0.5. I will try to have a look at the Provençal sequence tomorrow.

Don't be worried about crediting me in your mod. I am only a contributor. About the mod, I would like to know if it is possible to have as option the vanilla color scale. As it is now it's really a "dark age" and also for consistency with agceep about which I have tried to suggest a scenario starting from 1357: the year zero of HRE. Not as much consensus as expected..., maybe some years ago...

EDIT: I am reading something about the Fatimids in Sicily. Maybe a couple of events about the independence of an Emirate in Sicily could be interesting... Let's see.

 

[Bordic]

Any ideas about how modelling Saracen piracy on the Mediterranean shores. Some random events maybe? And a scripted chain of events for the battle of Garigliano of 915. Probably in the same way as it was for agceep Holy League PAP_3549. A PAP/MUS event would start the sequence. No triggers, apart from checking PAP/MUS event action A with a proper flag [Garigliano], just country specific events.

I don't know if this league should be specifically moved against THU/FAT, because of Sicily possessions. But that's maybe another story where the Normans are involved...

 

[Third Angel]

The text for "PORCELLAIN / GLASSWARE" is too long. It´s only shown as "RCELLAIN / GLASSWA" in my game.

I will have a look at it. The goods, among other stuff, come straight from Arabia Universalis. I am not entirely satisfied with them and always meant to rework them. It is just a matter of time.

The event for Neustria "The seizure of Sens" lacks a description it shows only "EVENTDESC384020"

Many events still lack descriptions.

Shouldn´t "York" be named "Jorvik" while being norse?

My rule is that countries names are to be in modern English when possible.

WIKI is nice to have as long as no better source is available.

Well most often better sources are available, it is still a matter of time.

Should the pope have claimcores on pippins gift in addition to Latium?

Not until the Popes actually tried to gain that back, from old memories I would say late in the twelfth century. I am not there yet but like I said anyone is free to contribute.

I noticed in several test games that always Napoli annexes Benevento.
Shouldn´t Capua conquer Benevent and not Napoli?

I just ran several quick test-games and you are right. This is the result of the new setup I adopted in 0.48. I had just one test before releasing it and BEN was able to retake its capital before BYZ retook Bari from them, so I assumed it worked as I had meant it. I will re-read about these events and see how to end up with historical results more often even if it means having a less historically accurate 888 setup. Thanks for the report, I wish I had more of those in the last two years.

There is actually an event for CPA to inherit BEN in 900, of course since 0.48 it does probably not fire very often.

I just noticed that Moravia (after annexing Bohemia) quickly tries to colonize the unowned area that was the former german federal republic - and that it establishes colonies on the coast that are not connected to Moravia.

Normally one can only create new colonies if you border them or you have a port and the province borders the sea.

Germany after moving it´s capital to Mainz and becoming landlocked can do the same.

Did you change something in the settings to enable that?

MOR colonization at the moment is a mess because I have not finished the geography.txt file I am working on, so they go too far nortwhards, way outside the area they should actually colonize in Lusatia. Along with the 1102 scenario, this file is one of my high-level priority for 0.5.

About landlocked countries colonizing unconnected provinces, I have no idea. The geography.txt currently used is the one of Arabia Universalis so I do not know if anything has been changed there or in any other involved files that I may have borrowed. Colonization in EU2/FTG has never been my area of expertise.

Any idea why in all games a new center of trade opens in Marchfeld in southeast GER which never grows to more than 1 province?

Two questions here. Why would a CoT located specifically in Marchfeld cover only one province? I may have an idea about that, I will try something and get back to you about it. Now, why a CoT should open at all in 888 when I have the same number of CoTs as the AGCEEP 1419 scenario? I assume this is because there are more provinces so the game needs more CoTs but I am not really sure. By the way, if you, or anyone else, have any suggestions about new CoTs, this is exactly the kind of stuff I would like to hear about.

Is it intentional that the culture in spain is "andalusi" and not andalusian?

At some point, it seemed to be the right decision, now that you mention it I cannot recall why exactly, maybe to differentiate between the inhabitants of Al-Andalus and those of modern Spanish Andalusia.

Moravia quickly becomes a blob in most of the games I run on the fastest setting.

I suggest the following changes:

In the events in which Moravia gains Bohemia we should use the annex command instead of the inherit command. That means that Moravia gains 1 BB instead of 0,25 BB for each province and the military units of Bohemia will not be inherited by Moravia. This should slow the expansion of Moravia somewhat.

After the death of Moravias king Sventopluk we should have an event around 895 in which Moravia gives independance to Bohemia as historically BOH ceded from Moravia and became vassals of Arnulf of Kärnten instead.

After reading some new stuff about the MOR/BOH relationship, I intend to rework the current events of the late ninth century, and to add some more about the downfall of Greater Moravia under the Hungarian assaults. When I do it, I will certainly take your suggestions into account.


Sorry for the late answer and I hope I did not forget anything. I will adress the technological matter later, and I have deliberately ignored posts concerning the HRE. As of now, I stand by my position of post #158 until someone can prove me that at some point between 963 and 1291, the Empire founded by Otto I came to resemble closely enough the post-1356 institutions supposedly modelled by the EU2/FTG engine.

 

[Third Angel]

Bordic, about post #169, a lot of bugfixing I see so thank you.

Also, I think it is a very good idea to have the sequence start with a TOS event, I remember I considered it at some point, cannot remember why I did not do it. I am not sure I agree with having MUS events for other countries than PAP. While we can consider that the Pope would still be there with Rome occupied by a foreign power, there would be no margrave of Tuscany if TOS did not exist. I can understand it would be annoying if the Provençal sequence did not fire just because of that, but note that a) it is very unlikely that TOS will not exist by 900, b) we could have an IRA event calling unto Louis instead of the MUS one, the IRA and the TOS events would sleep each other of course.

The bugfixing in post #174 also makes sense.

I just wanted to point out that in order to use MUS events we need to add province no. 2018 as known in the "inc file" of any Catholic or European country. This file is in each scenario folder.

Than we need to create a specific inc file for MUS country

In this way all event for Perpetual Pope would work.

Ok, that could be done. Do you know why only the Catholic countries, is it because MUS is Catholic?

The reason I ask is that you may have noticed that there are no Catholics in DoK yet. All European Christians are just Christians in all three scenarios. Some time ago, I wanted to have a global event for the Schism of 1054, I even had to convince Yoda to add a command to convert un-owned provinces. You can see a remain of that idea at the bottom of \Db\Religions\global_flags.txt but then the more I read about it, the more it seemed to me that the schism was not that important, that western and eastern christianisms were very different in many aspects long before 1054. Then I let the matter rest, because I was unable to decide what to do.

As I see things, there are three options: leave it as it is, considering that yes eastern and western christianisms diverged long before 1054 but that they were still close enough to be considered as one religion in EU2/FTG terms even up to 1291; separate them from 888, insisting on the fact that their theological and liturgical as well as political conflicts over the whole period did make them separate religions in game terms; go along with my first idea to make them separate only in 1054, supposing that the so-called Great Schism was of course not the only clash but that it was a major one, if not the major one. If you have any knowledge and/or ideas on these matters, you are most welcome.

I would like to know if it is possible to have as option the vanilla color scale. As it is now it's really a "dark age" and also for consistency with agceep about which I have tried to suggest a scenario starting from 1357: the year zero of HRE. Not as much consensus as expected..., maybe some years ago...

I never quite understood how this option to change colourscales in the Settings was supposed to work. In theory, you could switch between different sets but the names of the colours have to be the same, or they will not match with entries in countries.txt, cultures.txt, and so on.

I am reading something about the Fatimids in Sicily. Maybe a couple of events about the independence of an Emirate in Sicily could be interesting... Let's see.

Note that Muslim Sicily is a vassal of the Fatimids in the 962 scenario but there are no events to grant independence yet. It should probably be the same in 1031. I remember I wanted to have it split in two or three minor Muslim countries by that date but I never finished it.

Any ideas about how modelling Saracen piracy on the Mediterranean shores. Some random events maybe? And a scripted chain of events for the battle of Garigliano of 915. Probably in the same way as it was for agceep Holy League PAP_3549. A PAP/MUS event would start the sequence. No triggers, apart from checking PAP/MUS event action A with a proper flag [Garigliano], just country specific events.

I don't know if this league should be specifically moved against THU/FAT, because of Sicily possessions. But that's maybe another story where the Normans are involved...

Yes random events sound like a good idea, these should concern at least southern Italy, southern France and Corsica. I do not know much about northern Italy: Tuscany and Liguria, were they hit too? Also, what about Sardinia? The political situation there in the tenth century has always struck me as particularly dark to say the least.

As far as I can remember, the alliance against the Muslims settled at the mouths of the Garigliano was very specifically formed against them, it foundered very soon after the settlement was destroyed. I will have to have a look at the Holy League AGCEEP events to better understand what you are aiming at.

 

[Bordic]

Also, I think it is a very good idea to have the sequence start with a TOS event, I remember I considered it at some point, cannot remember why I did not do it. I am not sure I agree with having MUS events for other countries than PAP. While we can consider that the Pope would still be there with Rome occupied by a foreign power, there would be no margrave of Tuscany if TOS did not exist. I can understand it would be annoying if the Provençal sequence did not fire just because of that, but note that a) it is very unlikely that TOS will not exist by 900, b) we could have an IRA event calling unto Louis instead of the MUS one, the IRA and the TOS events would sleep each other of course.

In case, also an event similar to PRO_322000 but with its date and trigger testing the inexistence of IRA and TOS. This event will also trigger ITA_228008 in action A.

Ok, that could be done. Do you know why only the Catholic countries, is it because MUS is Catholic?

Yes, in agceep of course and also because it is before the Reformation. I just wanted to tell you that you don't need to add the known province in every country inc file but the ones you want them to know about this province as consequently have the MUS event effective. I didn't follow the MUS testing, but it seems to me that it worked in this way... however I can be wrong or have overlooked something... ;-)

The reason I ask is that you may have noticed that there are no Catholics in DoK yet. All European Christians are just Christians in all three scenarios. Some time ago, I wanted to have a global event for the Schism of 1054, I even had to convince Yoda to add a command to convert un-owned provinces. You can see a remain of that idea at the bottom of \Db\Religions\global_flags.txt but then the more I read about it, the more it seemed to me that the schism was not that important, that western and eastern christianisms were very different in many aspects long before 1054. Then I let the matter rest, because I was unable to decide what to do.

As I see things, there are three options: leave it as it is, considering that yes eastern and western christianisms diverged long before 1054 but that they were still close enough to be considered as one religion in EU2/FTG terms even up to 1291; separate them from 888, insisting on the fact that their theological and liturgical as well as political conflicts over the whole period did make them separate religions in game terms; go along with my first idea to make them separate only in 1054, supposing that the so-called Great Schism was of course not the only clash but that it was a major one, if not the major one. If you have any knowledge and/or ideas on these matters, you are most welcome.

Not much, just reading through the events in the Age of Timur mod as to learn about how the Great Schism works.

I never quite understood how this option to change colourscales in the Settings was supposed to work. In theory, you could switch between different sets but the names of the colours have to be the same, or they will not match with entries in countries.txt, cultures.txt, and so on.

There is only one choice. I also don't know how it could work. Probably terrains.txt should have colours matching with colorscales_terrain.txt.

A try would be to use agceep colorscales_terrain.txt and modify the references in dok terrain.txt. According to my tastes it is only the terrain which I can't be accustomed to. I prefer ldark orange to grey for mountains.

Note that Muslim Sicily is a vassal of the Fatimids in the 962 scenario but there are no events to grant independence yet. It should probably be the same in 1031. I remember I wanted to have it split in two or three minor Muslim countries by that date but I never finished it.

I had only the idea to add a couple of revolts in Sicily as to represent the attempts to be independent during the war between THU and FAT.

Yes random events sound like a good idea, these should concern at least southern Italy, southern France and Corsica. I do not know much about northern Italy: Tuscany and Liguria, were they hit too?

Yes. The Saracens from Frassineto (La Garde-Freinet) who also hit Provence.

Also, what about Sardinia? The political situation there in the tenth century has always struck me as particularly dark to say the least.

Yes, Sardinia was also struck.

As far as I can remember, the alliance against the Muslims settled at the mouths of the Garigliano was very specifically formed against them, it foundered very soon after the settlement was destroyed. I will have to have a look at the Holy League AGCEEP events to better understand what you are aiming at.

Nothing special, just relational improvements between the participants. I would also give some + dip and troops for Pope Ioannes X (Teofilatto's puppet in the age of Pornocracy...), some + dip to Berengario I who was entitled emperor because of this success and some + mil to Alberico of Spoleto because he was the leader. I'd think also about some + dip payed in cash by Byzantium in order to take part in it.

 

[Bordic]

About event ITA_228030 in post #169 I would like to add some fortresses, maybe Verona? Ideas?

How do you model concessions and privileges to churches and monasteries? Lesser base value taxes or sums to PAP?

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
As I see things, there are three options: leave it as it is, considering that yes eastern and western christianisms diverged long before 1054 but that they were still close enough to be considered as one religion in EU2/FTG terms even up to 1291; separate them from 888, insisting on the fact that their theological and liturgical as well as political conflicts over the whole period did make them separate religions in game terms; go along with my first idea to make them separate only in 1054, supposing that the so-called Great Schism was of course not the only clash but that it was a major one, if not the major one. If you have any knowledge and/or ideas on these matters, you are most welcome.

IMO catholic and orthodox should still be too similar to justify different religions in the game for the 888 and 962 scenario. More severe were the western use of the filioque from 1014 onward and worse that the Pope as a political leader of the Papal states meant to be the prime leader of all Patriarchs where the Patriarch of Constantinople and the others only were willing to accept that he was a primus inter pares and had no jurisdiction over them.

1291 would be too late IMO - the latest point for the seperation would be 1204 with the latin crusade and conquest of Constantinople.

Why not an event with a startdate of 1014 and an offset of 90 or more for PAP that sends his haughty message to Constantinople and in turn BYZ changes it´s state religion to orthodox?

Edit: And when Byzanz turns orthodox Rome could turn catholic - and most christians in the west follow. And those who stay "christian" are the perfect target for the crusade against the albigenser / Katharer ^^

 

[Bordic]

Ok, the problem is that if TOS is a vassal of ITA at start, they will eventually end up in the same alliance, and it will become even harder for an AI SPL. Hopefully with the high revoltrisk in Italy and the taking of Pavia by either SPL or REB as a trigger for the Widonid ITA events, it will not be an issue. I will try with a vassalization ITA TOS and low relations, around 0, to see if they make alliance.

On a more general level, this is something I have never come around to do: the forging of alliances in 888, even not fully historically justified, to avoid weird AI random alliances that will screw the early historical events (something like what you did with the Italian minors in AGCEEP if you'd remember). If you have any ideas...

I noticed in several test games that always Napoli annexes Benevento.
Shouldn´t Capua conquer Benevent and not Napoli?

I just ran several quick test-games and you are right. This is the result of the new setup I adopted in 0.48. I had just one test before releasing it and BEN was able to retake its capital before BYZ retook Bari from them, so I assumed it worked as I had meant it. I will re-read about these events and see how to end up with historical results more often even if it means having a less historically accurate 888 setup. Thanks for the report, I wish I had more of those in the last two years.

There is actually an event for CPA to inherit BEN in 900, of course since 0.48 it does probably not fire very often.

I have re-read post #122 in page 7 and comments above. I have thought about some cross "vassalization -alliance" relations between neighbouring countries.

EDIT: Should Benevento be at war with Naples? Benevento could be allied to which country?

 

[ConjurerDragon]

I will have a look at it. The goods, among other stuff, come straight from Arabia Universalis. I am not entirely satisfied with them and always meant to rework them. It is just a matter of time.

Arabia Universalis? Then that would be the reason that in
provinces_special.txt
the default center of the map is defined as Mekkah ^^

#Provinces - Specific information

#map_center = <provid>  Default center of the map
#control_seazone = { }  Increased chance for interception in adjacent sea zone.
#religious_cb = { }     Permanent CB for all countries of the specified religion or religious subgroup against the owner if not in the owner list.
#tot = { }              List of provinces for each country involved in ToT. See global flags.
#hre = { }              List of provinces for the Holy Roman Empire.

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

map_center = [color=red]399 #Mecca[/color][color=yellow]357 #Jerusalem[/color]

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

control_seazone = {
}

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

religious_cb = {[color=yellow]
religion = {
		province = 518 #Roma
		type = catholic
		owner = { PAP }
	}[/color]
}

tot = {
}

hre = {
}

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should we move the default center of the map to the vanilla and AGCEEP center Rome (in the map here 518) or Jerusalem (357) as the Crusades are within the games timeframe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_orientation#Orientation_of_maps

If "christian" and "catholic" are two different religions in your mod then we can even use the relgious CB. Just define it as a CB of all catholics on everyone who owns Rome (except the pope) and it should work from the start of the schism. Or we can use it fromt he start of the game and give the CB to all "christian" and all later "catholic" states if someone else than the pope owns Rome.

Two questions here. Why would a CoT located specifically in Marchfeld cover only one province? I may have an idea about that, I will try something and get back to you about it. Now, why a CoT should open at all in 888 when I have the same number of CoTs as the AGCEEP 1419 scenario? I assume this is because there are more provinces so the game needs more CoTs but I am not really sure. By the way, if you, or anyone else, have any suggestions about new CoTs, this is exactly the kind of stuff I would like to hear about.

The new CoT opened in my last testgame on 01.01.889

Sorry for the late answer and I hope I did not forget anything. I will adress the technological matter later, and I have deliberately ignored posts concerning the HRE. As of now, I stand by my position of post #158 until someone can prove me that at some point between 963 and 1291, the Empire founded by Otto I came to resemble closely enough the post-1356 institutions supposedly modelled by the EU2/FTG engine.

FtG does not model the historical HRE at all - neither before 1356 nor after. Historically there were only 7 and later some more electors. In the game every state in Germany is an "elector" with a vote, so that all pay their ducat tribute and give the Emperor the small manpower bonus. So the HRE ingame does not even try to model history closely but only to simulate something similar.

And that similar simulation fits to the "Roman Empire" of Otto I. too.
Having the Emperor while at war having military access to all provinces that belong to the HRE (instead of asking every vassal state for military access like if they were completely foreign states) is fitting.

The stem duchies of Otto I empire would of course historically NOT be the same as the 7 electors of the HRE. But they fulfill the same role. They bolstered the Emperors army when called upon (small manpower bonus) and they supported the Emperor with gold (ducat tribute) *while being at good relations*. If would be just the same as in the vanilla or AGCEEP game where "Hessen" or "Austria" are electors, who historically never have been. It´s just an ingame name for a state within the Empire that supports the Emperor while being at good relations. And in the case that the Emperor was not at good terms with one of the duchies he would lose these two advantages from them.

And while the election of the new emperor was not formally put into written rules like in the later HRE - no new emperor could hope to rule without his vassals following him.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Yes there is something I surely forgot in order to have things working. I try to see what is missing reading through agceep files...

One thing I remembered while browsing through the games files:
DoK has no "papacy = yes" for the catholic religion in religions.txt - or for the "christian" religion with which all christian countries start the game.
When I understand the comments for that entry right then without it only electors who are within the Empire can be elected as Emperors and no elector can vote for himself. Without electors ( or with only the pope as elector who can´t vote for himself) the default emperor is used.

The papacy = yes for the catholic religion means that all catholic monarchs are viable emperors (if not forbidden in their monarchs entry by emperor = no, or forbidden geographically by continents entry) as long as no electors can be elected.

 

[Bordic]

Arabia Universalis? Then that would be the reason that in
provinces_special.txt
the default center of the map is defined as Mekkah ^^

#Provinces - Specific information

#map_center = <provid>  Default center of the map
#control_seazone = { }  Increased chance for interception in adjacent sea zone.
#religious_cb = { }     Permanent CB for all countries of the specified religion or religious subgroup against the owner if not in the owner list.
#tot = { }              List of provinces for each country involved in ToT. See global flags.
#hre = { }              List of provinces for the Holy Roman Empire.

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

map_center = [color=red]399 #Mecca[/color][color=yellow]357 #Jerusalem[/color]

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

control_seazone = {
}

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

religious_cb = {[color=yellow]
religion = {
		province = 518 #Roma
		type = catholic
		owner = { PAP }
	}[/color]
}

tot = {
}

hre = {
}

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should we move the default center of the map to the vanilla and AGCEEP center Rome (in the map here 518) or Jerusalem (357) as the Crusades are within the

games timeframe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map_orientation#Orientation_of_maps

If "christian" and "catholic" are two different religions in your mod then we can even use the relgious CB. Just define it as a CB of all catholics on

everyone who owns Rome (except the pope) and it should work from the start of the schism. Or we can use it fromt he start of the game and give the CB to all

"christian" and all later "catholic" states if someone else than the pope owns Rome.

I agree with Jerusalem being the central map.

I don't agree with the religious cb against contries holding Rome, or at least not only Rome. As we talk about Crusades to be included in this mod, I'd

suggest following:

religious_cb = {[color=yellow]
	religion = {
		province = 518 #Roma
		type = christian
		owner = { PAP }
	}
	religion = {
		province = 357 #Jerusalem
		type = christian
		owner = { PAP FRA GER ENG... }
	}[/color]
}

All Crusader countries should be included, imo.


I would also modify the religious_cb in religions_special.txt, including the Iberian countries dealing with the Reconquista:

#Religions - Specific information for countries

#hre = { }               Default Emperor and list of countries with bonus for election.
#religious_leader = { }  List of countries that give CB during war to countries in the same religous subgroup against country at war against the leader (for example, Papacy for Catholic faith).
#no_dynastic = { }       List of countries that cannot have dynastical relations with other countries even if allowed by religion.
#religious_cb = { }      List of countries that have a permanent CB against other countries if religion of the country is in conflict or aggressive (see conflict or aggressiveness respectively in Religions DB file) toward religion of targeted countries.

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

religious_leader = {
	PAP = catholic
}

religious_cb = { [color=yellow]GAL CLC LEO CAT ARG CAS ASU AST PAM... [/color] }

no_dynastic = { PAP }

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Probably there are other Iberian minors which I didn't find.


And then in religions.txt file:

#Religions

#Religions must be uniquely named.

#group = <name>                         Countries that can convert by force each others if force_conversion = yes.
#subgroup = <name>                      No penalty for switching religion if possible (not different religions) - Common Defender of the Faith if allowed.
#allowed_conversion = { }               List of religions for possible conversion if not forbidden by global flags.
#income_bonus = { }                     List of religions that will give an income bonus for first conversion IF to one of them.
#war = { }                              List of religions to be DoWed if possible.
#aggressiveness = { }                   List of religions to be Dowed if possible when neighbour and for colonization purpose.
#conflict = { }                         List of religions for potential enemies. See global flags religious_enemies definition for complement.
#heretic = { }                          List of religions for heretic events if not forbidden by global flags.
#papacy = yes/no                       	If yes, Papacy rules apply:
#                                       - Monarch can be elected HRE Emperor if capital is located in Europe and even if not Elector (default is no if not specified).
#                                       - CB against owner of Rome if no Papacy or any country DoWing Papacy.
#                                       - ToT rules can apply. See enable_tot entry for global flags.
#predominance = yes/no                  If yes, better chance for CoT apparition in provinces and AI specific behaviour (default is no if not specified).
#force_conversion = yes/no              If no, country cannot be converted by force in the same group (default is yes if not specified).
#defender = yes/no                      If no, religion cannot have a Defender of the Faith (default is yes if not specified).
#annexable = yes/no                     If yes, country can always be annexed or converted by force (default is no if not specified).
#annex_same_penalty = yes/no            If yes, badboy penalty for annexing countries in the same group (default is no if not specified).
#annex_other_penalty = yes/no           If yes, badboy penalty for annexing countries in other groups (default is no if not specified).
#reveal_map = yes/no                    If yes, occupying capital or annexing country reveals all maps (default is yes if not specified).
#whiteman = yes/no                      If yes, whiteman rules apply to provinces for created countries (default is no if not specified).
#defectprovinceto_penalty = yes/no      If yes, provinces of different religion will have a penalty for possible defection to a country of this religion (default is no if not specified).
#province_nationalism = yes/no          If no, provinces of this religion have no nationalism (default is yes if not specified).
#province_religion = <name>             Religion of the provinces for corresponding state religion (default is the name of the religion if not specified).
#coastalprovince_bonus = yes/no         If yes, provinces of this religion give a colonist bonus if national province of the owner country (default is no if not specified).
#stability_cost = X.XX                  Cost of each not state religion province when computing global stability cost (default is 25.00 if not specified). Cost is doubled for predominant state religions if the religion of the province is not in the same religious group.
#missionary_placement_chance = X.XX     Base chance for conversion (default is 0.10 if not specified).
#missionary_placement_penalty = yes/no  If yes, provinces of this religion give a penalty for missionary placement chance (default is yes if not specified).
#missionary_sprite = X                  Level of missionary spr file for Missionary Information Window and map display (default is 1 if not specified).
#slaves_effect = X.XX                   Influence on slaves demand in provinces owned by corresponding countries (default is 0.10 if not specified).

#Default value is 0.00 for all other numeric entries if the entry is not specified.

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#European

christian = {
	group = european
	subgroup = christian
	color = White
	allowed_conversion = {
		catholic
		orthodox
	}
	[color=yellow]conflict = {
		sunni
		shiite
	}[/color] 
}

catholic = {
	group = european
	subgroup = christian
	color = White
	agressiveness = {
		eastern_pagan
	}
	heretic = {
		orthodox
		eastern_christian
	}
	[color=yellow]conflict = {
		sunni
		shiite
	}[/color]
}

orthodox = {
	group = european
	subgroup = christian
	color = Grey
	agressiveness = {
		eastern_pagan
	}
	heretic = {
		catholic
	}
	[color=yellow]conflict = {
		sunni
		shiite
	}[/color]
}

And then in the global_flags.txt we should include:

#Global flags

#Each flag only modifies mentioned settings. flag_start is mandatory and initialize settings at the beginning of the game.

#enable_religion = { }            List of enabled religions
#disable_religion_ai = { }        List of religions AI will not try to convert to (even if allowed) and revert to default in the same subgroup if possible.
#casusbelli = { }                 List of religions that have a permanent casus belli against some other religions.
#religious_restricts = { }        List of religions that cannot have relations (dynastic, vassalization and annexation).
#religious_enemies = { }          List of religions that are enemies for AI decisions.
#tolerance = { }                  In the information window, tolerance slider displayed or not, under which name (can be group or subgroup) and with default tolerance value or, if not displayed, with automatic same value as specified religion.
#defender = yes/no                Enable/Disable defender of the faith rules for religions that can have a defender (default is no if not specified in start).
#predominance_tolerance = yes/no  Enable/Disable tolerance rules for predominant religions.
#enable_tot = yes/no              Enable/Disable ToT rules for involved countries (default is no if not specified in start).

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

flag_start = {
	enable_religion = {
		christian
		northern_pagan
		eastern_pagan
		sunni
		shiite
		kharijite
		eastern_christian
		jewish
		buddhism
		confucianism
		hinduism
		steppe_pagan
		african_pagan
	}


...


	[color=yellow]religious_enemies = {
		catholic = {
			sunni
			shiite
		}
		christian = {
			sunni
			shiite
		}
		orthodox = {
			sunni
			shiite
		}
		sunni = {
			catholic
			orthodox
			shiite
		}
		shiite = {
			catholic
			orthodox
			sunni
		}
	}[/color]
	predominance_tolerance = no
}

I don't know if we have all of them.

I also don't know if this is the correct way to tweak these files. I have only read through the instructions at the beginning of each file.

 

[Bordic]

One thing I remembered while browsing through the games files:
DoK has no "papacy = yes" for the catholic religion in religions.txt - or for the "christian" religion with which all christian countries start the game.
When I understand the comments for that entry right then without it only electors who are within the Empire can be elected as Emperors and no elector can vote for himself. Without electors ( or with only the pope as elector who can´t vote for himself) the default emperor is used.

The papacy = yes for the catholic religion means that all catholic monarchs are viable emperors (if not forbidden in their monarchs entry by emperor = no, or forbidden geographically by continents entry) as long as no electors can be elected.

Yes, I have seen it also when I was reading the content of the files in the religions folder.

However Third Angel already said we won't implement the HRE mechanism in this mod.

 

[Third Angel]

In case, also an event similar to PRO_322000 but with its date and trigger testing the inexistence of IRA and TOS. This event will also trigger ITA_228008 in action A.

Good.

Yes, in agceep of course and also because it is before the Reformation. I just wanted to tell you that you don't need to add the known province in every country inc file but the ones you want them to know about this province as consequently have the MUS event effective. I didn't follow the MUS testing, but it seems to me that it worked in this way... however I can be wrong or have overlooked something... ;-)

I will try it and sees how it works.

Not much, just reading through the events in the Age of Timur mod as to learn about how the Great Schism works.

Then I think we are not referring to the same Great Schism. I mean 1054, Garbon's mod is probably more concerned with the 1378 one.

There is only one choice. I also don't know how it could work. Probably terrains.txt should have colours matching with colorscales_terrain.txt.

A try would be to use agceep colorscales_terrain.txt and modify the references in dok terrain.txt. According to my tastes it is only the terrain which I can't be accustomed to. I prefer ldark orange to grey for mountains.

I am sorry, this is not a priority for me. I guess you could try adding another set and then delete this line: "colorscales = { "glory" }" from mod_DoK.txt.

I had only the idea to add a couple of revolts in Sicily as to represent the attempts to be independent during the war between THU and FAT.

Ok, beware that the THU/FAT sequence is still very sketchy and usually does not work as far as I have seen.

Yes. The Saracens from Frassineto (La Garde-Freinet) who also hit Provence.

Yes, Sardinia was also struck.

Ok, should we make the random events province specific, or area/region specific if that is possible, or country specific?

Nothing special, just relational improvements between the participants. I would also give some + dip and troops for Pope Ioannes X (Teofilatto's puppet in the age of Pornocracy...), some + dip to Berengario I who was entitled emperor because of this success and some + mil to Alberico of Spoleto because he was the leader. I'd think also about some + dip payed in cash by Byzantium in order to take part in it.

Ok.

From what I read (Before the Normans, Barbara M. Kreutz), a few points: the operation was initiated by Capua who was most suffering from the raids. CPA then brought BYZ in, and together they convinced NAP and SLO to join in. Not sure how exactly PAP came to be involved but it seems that Pope Ioannes X did not participate in the planification as he only had been in power for a short time. PAP was important in that it bought Gaeta's neutrality with a grant of land. The non-cooperation of GTA had been one of the causes of the failure of the previous attempt in 903. Surprisingly, Amalfi who had been a key-player in 903 is not mentionned in 915.

I would be interested to read your descriptions for the events you are planning to see how we can reconcile our sources.

I have re-read post #122 in page 7 and comments above. I have thought about some cross "vassalization -alliance" relations between neighbouring countries.

Good, looking forward to it. Also, about TOS' position in the FRL/SPL conflict, it seems that Adalberto took Wido's side, his maternal uncle after all, after a few years, but I cannot find an exact date. We could have an event for him to intervene.

Should Benevento be at war with Naples? Benevento could be allied to which country?

Yes, I think so but I found a solution to the issue raised by ConjurerDragon, NAP will not control Samnium in 888, only have troops there.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
I don't agree with the religious cb against contries holding Rome, or at least not only Rome. As we talk about Crusades to be included in this mod, I'd

suggest following:

religious_cb = {[color=yellow]
	religion = {
		province = 518 #Roma
		type = christian
		owner = { PAP }
	}
[code][/color]
[/quote]

So you do agree with what I suggested. ;-)

[quote]
[code]
	religion = {
		province = 357 #Jerusalem
		type = christian
		owner = { PAP FRA GER ENG... }
	}[/color]
}

All Crusader countries should be included, imo.

From 888 onward? As far as I know we can´t change that info in the defining files during the game. Better have an event for PAP to call for a crusade in 1095 and then give the crusader states a CB on Jerusalem by event.

I would also modify the religious_cb in religions_special.txt, including the Iberian countries dealing with the Reconquista:

...
religious_leader = {
	PAP = catholic
}

religious_cb = { [color=yellow]GAL CLC LEO CAT ARG CAS ASU AST PAM... [/color] }

Then the iberian minors gain a permanent CB against all muslims like Spain in vanilla FtG? Even on those muslims in Indonesia? ;-)
The reconquista would better be simulated by giving the christian iberian minors cores on the provinces they reconquered historically.

 

[Bordic]

In case, also an event similar to PRO_322000 but with its date and trigger testing the inexistence of IRA and TOS. This event will also trigger ITA_228008 in action A.

Good.

I'll update post #169 adding IRA and a PRO events to alternatively start the sequence "Provençal intervention" and also adding the tweaked event in post #174. MUS event will be then removed.

Or do you prefer having the sequence reposted in this page?



In a past post you said that, in case Berengario submits to Arnulf, ITA should break this vassalage in the following years.

We can use ITA_228030 in post #169 as it should fire when Ludwig IV das Kind "rules" in Germany.

As per event description in 228030, I also would like to add some fortresses in this event. Verona for sure, and then? Aquae?

As per the the same description in 228030, how could we model concessions and privileges given to churches and monasteries?
Lesser base value taxes and/or sums to PAP?

 

[Third Angel]

Religious matters

Bordic, I think the relationship between Christians and other religions was much more relaxed in the first half of the timeframe than it was later on. One only has to read about the ambiguous relations between Christians and Muslims in Iberia and Southern Italy, or between Christians and Pagans in Eastern Germany and in the British Isles. Yes, there were wars as there were between same-religion countries but still, Christians and non- or pseudo-Christians did intermarry, they fought alongside against their co-religionists.

I think things evolved slowly during the course of the eleventh century, culminating in the First Crusade and the Almoravid invasion. Your proposed changes would only make sense by then in my opinion. Maybe we could add a global flag to represent the growing religious intolerance. We would have to find a more precise date though.

ConjurerDragon, the cb against owners of Rome has been removed on purpose, nothing that I read suggested that it would make any sense to have it during the timeframe, and even more so before the mid- or late eleventh century. About Jerusalem, yes it could be made the center of the map, I guess, although I do not even know what this entry is supposed to be used for.


EDIT: yes, the Iberian Christians will get claim cores. I plan to give them at the beginning of the monarch who actually re-conquered them.

EDIT2: I still need to think some more about the catholic/orthodox isssue.

 

[Third Angel]

I'll update post #169 adding IRA and a PRO events to alternatively start the sequence "Provençal intervention" and also adding the tweaked event in post #174. MUS event will be then removed.

Or do you prefer having the sequence reposted in this page?

Good, no I would rather have you edit your post. Adding #174 to #169 is a good idea.

In a past post you said that, in case Berengario submits to Arnulf, ITA should break this vassalage in the following years.

We can use ITA_228030 in post #169 as it should fire when Ludwig IV das Kind "rules" in Germany.

Ok.

As per event description in 228030, I also would like to add some fortresses in this event. Verona for sure, and then? Aquae?

I will go along with your decision on this as I really have no opinion. I seem to recall something about Verona's fortifications being enhanced, not sure about Aquae. Would you not agree that two are enough? In my opinion one fortress level in EU2/FTG should represent a very consequent upgrading.

As per the the same description in 228030, how could we model concessions and privileges given to churches and monasteries?
Lesser base value taxes and/or sums to PAP?

I really do not know though I have been thinking about it a lot for Francia. I do not like the sums to PAP idea as many monasteries were quite independent from the ecclesial hierarchy in that time. Maybe I am wrong but I guess the donations and privileges, while certainly making the Prince poorer, were a long-time investment as they made the province richer and more attractive, so maybe a loss of money for a gain of tax base value and possibly manpower.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
MOR colonization at the moment is a mess because I have not finished the geography.txt file I am working on, so they go too far nortwhards, way outside the area they should actually colonize in Lusatia. Along with the 1102 scenario, this file is one of my high-level priority for 0.5.

The "natives" in the provinces around the river Elbe northwest of Moravia all have aggresiveness *0* in DoK so they are no hindrance for colonization at all.
As even the peaceful indians at the american east coast have aggresivenesses ranging from 1 - 3 in AGCEEP perhaps raising the aggresiveness of the natives in provinces of DoK: 983, 984, 719 and 720 from 0 to 2 would slow down the colonization there?