Dawn of Kingdoms

[Third Angel]

You mean, China as leading tech developper? I am not against, I just wanted to give a first suggestion on how the world was different than in ftg time span...

However a two speed tech research would be at least preferable. The world never progressed uniformly.

I don´t disagree with him. China was the most advanced nation back then which had gunpowder, paper, paper money etc. long before anyone in Europe thought about it. However simply giving China the lead in technology would result in a chinese blob over asia. So China would need to be preoccupied with their internal revolts just like in AGCEEP to prevent them from using their technological lead for a world conqest.

Ok, I will be waiting for concrete suggestions then. I would like to concentrate on the 1102 scenario myself.

By the way, you are aware that tech groups are fully moddable in FTG, right? I ask because of the suggestion in post #216.

#Tech Groups

#Tech Groups must be uniquely named.

#tech_speed = X.XX  Global Modifier. Must be positive: 1.00 means normal speed and under 1.00, lowered speed (default is 1.00 if not specified). See Religions DB file for other tech speed modifier.

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

latin = { #Default
    tech_speed = 1.00
}

orthodox = {
    tech_speed = 0.90
}

muslim = {
    tech_speed = 0.80
}

china = {
    tech_speed = 0.60
}

africa = {
    tech_speed = 0.40
}

exotic = {
    tech_speed = 0.10
}

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the vanilla and AGCEEP game the shock and fire values of artillery rise with discovering new land technology levels. The siege bonus however stays the same during the whole game and is only dependant on the number of artillery present during a siege:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?37492-Siege-bonus-from-cannon

Which means that you can lower fire and shock values to any low value you like to represent that medieval "siege engines" were even less moblie than artillery and still have the same effect for "siege engines" during sieges.

Ok, but like I said before, concrete numbers and, even more, modified files would help. If I had more time, I would have taken care of this long ago.

Actually vanilla artillery has Fire values ranging from 0 to 80000, and Shock values from 440 to 9250. DoK has Fire from 1000 to 2000, and Shock from 250 to 500. What would you suggest?

 

[Bordic]

Ok, I will be waiting for concrete suggestions then. I would like to concentrate on the 1102 scenario myself.

By the way, you are aware that tech groups are fully moddable in FTG, right? I ask because of the suggestion in post #216.

#Tech Groups

#Tech Groups must be uniquely named.

#tech_speed = X.XX  Global Modifier. Must be positive: 1.00 means normal speed and under 1.00, lowered speed (default is 1.00 if not specified). See Religions DB file for other tech speed modifier.

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

latin = { #Default
    tech_speed = 1.00
}

orthodox = {
    tech_speed = 0.90
}

muslim = {
    tech_speed = 0.80
}

china = {
    tech_speed = 0.60
}

africa = {
    tech_speed = 0.40
}

exotic = {
    tech_speed = 0.10
}

#-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, but after reading the religions.txt I am not so sure...

If latin tech speed is 1.00 then catholic tech speed is -1.00. What shoud that mean? There are other positive factor to increase that speed but I cannot find them out...

 

[Third Angel]

Let's see what we have about those Sicilian revolts. Just some revolt in Palermo when FAT_193000 fires for Tazrut. I need to find some descriptional facts to implement these events, although.

Ok.

IMO, we should have some Norman, Hungarian and Saracen random attacks in the game.

Attacks from the sea should be probably province random specific for sea attacks. We could even use specific areas for the coastal provinces such as Mediterranean (id 239) for the Southern European with access to the sea and maybe a new specific region for the North Atlantic coastal provinces from Brittany to Holstein...

Instead, for land attacks we could use area random specific events. Italy is 238. So a -1238 command could be used.

Ok, we will see how this goes. I am reworking geography.txt entirely by the way but I will let you know about it.

The sources I wanted to use were for events starting directly with the league of 915, so no early operations such as the one you pointed out since 903. But, let's see as this chain of events shouldn't be scripted to change ownership of provinces but to have people be informed of historical facts.

Ok.

Well, about the alliances with Italian minors, I haven't yet made any decision about. It's difficult to form alliances between the Southern Italian contries. So I think that current status is good except for the war between NAP and BEN, very unbalancing.

I have not had the time yet to test the different setup I suggested in post #195, I still hope this will be enough to keep BEN alive.

In my sources Adalberto intervened when Arnulf went to Italy in his first trip. we could think he would have supported Wido against Berengario, Arnulf's puppet, but he wouldn't support Lamberto when becoming king as it happened IRL.

Ok, sources for this early period are often contradictory or incomplete, historians' interpretations of shadowy facts may easily diverge. I will wait until I know more about it then.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...

Ok, but like I said before, concrete numbers and, even more, modified files would help. If I had more time, I would have taken care of this long ago.

Actually vanilla artillery has Fire values ranging from 0 to 80000, and Shock values from 440 to 9250. DoK has Fire from 1000 to 2000, and Shock from 250 to 500. What would you suggest?

The question would be do define what "fire" would mean in DoK. If you would say it should be firearms just like in the vanilla game then only late landtechs should actually give any fire value to "siege engines" and only the very latest a fire value to infantery, which probable only China and a handful of others should be able to research within the limited timeframe. The damage from catapults or ballistae would be "shock".

If you redefine "fire" just like artillery = siege engines into "anything that kills at range and is no handheld weapon" like ballista, catapults, mangonels, trebuchets... then earlier landtechs could grant a fire phase but the fire values would need to be low compared to vanilla values as those are less mobile and less useful in field battles and historically most often build on spot for sieges.

In the extreme any ranged weapon could be "fire" - even bows, spears, pilums, throwing axes like the Frank.

 

[Third Angel]

...

In the extreme any ranged weapon could be "fire" - even bows, spears, pilums, throwing axes like the Frank.

Yes, I think I would rather see it like that.

Thanks for the suggestions, I will see what I can come up with when I get the time. If you have more concrete ideas before I do, do not hesitate.

 

[Toio]

just uploaded 0.49 and works ( hope i uploaded correctly) using 1.3 as well

Just some questions on how much of europe are you doing , because I am playing pomerania and notice a void on the vistula where the prussian clans ( not german prussians, but baltic prussians ) should be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prussian_clans_13th_century.png

i was thinking about doing something for this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_uprisings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians

http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/id87.html

http://prusowie.pl/historia/who_were_the_prussians.php

http://prusowie.pl/historia/herosi/herkus_monte-en.php

If so , you need to have the teutonic knights included

a COA of the old prussians - recommend MONTEMID COA as it seems there best leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prus_coat_of_arms
most likely 4 provinces representing the 11 clans
recommend sambia province as capital province

If not interested , its fine by me

 

[Third Angel]

This was my latest statement on the subject, and this also goes for the East-Slavic tribes not under Rus' domination and the Baltic/Ugric tribes:

[...] for the moment I will not make countries in these areas because:
1. Historical resources about the tribes are very scarce so I would hardly know how to trace borders or name the countries, and I am not even thinking about monarchs lists.
2. From what I read, the German eastwards expansion rather looks like FTG colonization with ferocious natives.
3. They never founded a state.

[...]

The issue here is really about what EU2/FTG tags are meant/able to represent and I believe they are about states, not tribes. So basically, my rule has been that DoK nations must have been states or formed one during the timeframe.

The Teutonic Order should probably appear at some point though and that is a problem since you cannot have a nation spawn out of empty provinces, I have yet to find a solution for this, then the Order can go on colonizing Prussia during the thirteenth century..

 

[Toio]

This was my latest statement on the subject, and this also goes for the East-Slavic tribers not under Rus' domination and the Baltic/Ugric tribes:The issue here is really about what EU2/FTG tags are meant/able to represent and I believe they are bout states not tribes. So basically, my rule has been that DoK nations must have been states or formed one during the timeframe.

The Teutonic Order should probably appear at some point though and that is a problem since you cannot have a nation spawn out of empty provinces, I have yet to find a solution for this, then the Order can go on colonizing Prussia during the thirteenth century..

a simple solution would be that who holds the vistula land - next to pommerania - would concede this land to the teutons after 1226, bascially independence for LAT.

other events later would grant certain lands east of the initial land to the LAT in the form of a colony

 

[ConjurerDragon]

This was my latest statement on the subject, and this also goes for the East-Slavic tribers not under Rus' domination and the Baltic/Ugric tribes:The issue here is really about what EU2/FTG tags are meant/able to represent and I believe they are bout states not tribes. So basically, my rule has been that DoK nations must have been states or formed one during the timeframe.

The Teutonic Order should probably appear at some point though and that is a problem since you cannot have a nation spawn out of empty provinces, I have yet to find a solution for this, then the Order can go on colonizing Prussia during the thirteenth century..

Event for Poland. Historically they were invited and granted a patch of land before they started their prussian conquest.

Edit: e.g. Poland granting independance to the teutoic order in province 711 if owned.

 

[Third Angel]

a simple solution would be that who holds the vistula land - next to pommerania - would concede this land to the teutons after 1226, bascially independence for LAT.

other events later would grant certain lands east of the initial land to the LAT in the form of a colony

Yes but that would not work as you cannot create countries out of empty provinces, and Prussia will remain empty.

Event for Poland. Historically they were invited and granted a patch of land before they started their prussian conquest.

Thanks for that, it will be useful.

 

[Toio]

Yes but that would not work as you cannot create countries out of empty provinces, and Prussia will remain empty.

i do not understand, i meant above, once this land is colonized by somone , a province event

 

[Third Angel]

Colonized by who? Should it not be precisely the Teutonic Order that colonizes these lands?

 

[Toio]

Colonized by who? Should it not be precisely the Teutonic Order that colonizes these lands?

if no one colonizes this one province then teutons will not appear, if POM or any other satae colonize then a province event giving LAT this land would trigger

can a non colonized province via event create the teutons there?

 

[Third Angel]

No, which is why I will probably go along with ConjurerDragon's suggestion to have Poland grant it independence. POM should certainly not colonize anywhere.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
MOR colonization at the moment is a mess because I have not finished the geography.txt file I am working on, so they go too far nortwhards, way outside the area they should actually colonize in Lusatia. Along with the 1102 scenario, this file is one of my high-level priority for 0.5.

For a quick solution why not move "colonists = yes" from infra.txt techlevel 0 to techlevel 1 or an even later techlevel (trading posts are currently only possible with trade tech 5)?
That will delay unhistorical colonization a few years and "province-wide" colonization really did not start that early.

Unless you want some state to be able to establish colonies early in which case that state could start with a higher infra tech or get an event boosting it´s infra research to get the needed level at the approbiate time.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
My rule is that countries names are to be in modern English when possible.

I meant the cityname Jorvik instead of York as long as the provinceculture is norse.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Could we use this in provinces_special.txt?

#control_seazone = { } Increased chance for interception in adjacent sea zone.

control_seazone = {
		[color=yellow]985 #Scania
		727 #Zealand
		281 #Konstantinople
		246 #Messina Strait
		247 #Messina Strait
		 50 #Malak
		179 #Tangier[/color]
		}

for comparison AGCEEP uses:

control_seazone = {
	445 #Gibraltar
	732 #Tangiers
	357 #Thrace
	307 #Sjælland
	251 #Skåne
}

and vanilla FtG uses:

control_seazone = {
	819 #Malta
	737 #Al-Djazair
	734 #Orania
	732 #Tangiers
	445 #Gibraltar
	406 #Provence
	370 #Veneto
	357 #Thrace
	339 #Holland
	307 #Sjælland
	251 #Skåne
	250 #Cornwall
	249 #Wessex
	248 #Kent
}

 

[Third Angel]

For a quick solution why not move "colonists = yes" from infra.txt techlevel 0 to techlevel 1 or an even later techlevel (trading posts are currently only possible with trade tech 5)?
That will delay unhistorical colonization a few years and "province-wide" colonization really did not start that early.

Unless you want some state to be able to establish colonies early in which case that state could start with a higher infra tech or get an event boosting it´s infra research to get the needed level at the approbiate time.

I will try my way first, once Wendia is divided into north and south and MOR set to colonize only south, I believe it will be settled.

About trading posts, I could not see of what use they could be in that timeframe so I put them quite late. Now that you mention it, maybe they could be renamed and used for something else, fortified outposts... I will think about it.

I meant the cityname Jorvik instead of York as long as the provinceculture is norse.

Then you are right, will change.

Could we use this in provinces_special.txt?

#control_seazone = { } Increased chance for interception in adjacent sea zone.

control_seazone = {
        [COLOR=yellow]985 #Scania
        727 #Zealand
        281 #Konstantinople
        246 #Messina Strait
        247 #Messina Strait
         50 #Malak
        179 #Tangier[/COLOR]
        }

Why not, although I have to confess that I never quite understood what this increased chance for interception really was.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

...
Why not, although I have to confess that I never quite understood what this increased chance for interception really was.

Simply a higher chance that the two fleets actually meet in battle when one of them starts from one of the listed provinces.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?431786-Development-Diary-3-16th-of-September-2009

The normal chance to meet in battle means that two fleets can simply sail through the same ocean area without ever fighting as they did never spot each other. Those provinces that historically controlled natural chokepoints, e.g. Konstantinople controlling the passage from the Black Sea to the Aegis should be in that database so that a naval battle is more likely to happen there than in other ocean areas.

 

[Third Angel]

Ok, thanks, I think I get it now. I will add them.