First Impression & Suggestions

[unmerged(533560)]

Let me start off by being specific: I LOVE THIS GAME!

Now on to some immediate thoughts I have on it. Maybe as suggestion for a later game or expansion pack.

1) As I have always fancied urban rail, the "Zossen Eins" tram (or at least a corresponding type) should have been provided with a trailer car, effectively at least doubling its capacity. This would be historically correct as many early trams featured such and it would make the tram more useful and improve game play.
Here's a 20's era tram set from Gothenburg, Sweden:
http://c0056906.cdn2.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/285226.jpg
Summertime car:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_v0H1i0WfUDk/TFF_zq-YpfI/AAAAAAAABUM/3qZF08-ryb8/s1600/tram 3.jpg

2) On wider streets, tram rail is always laid in the periphery instead of in the middle of the street. This is a relatively less common configuration and generally regarded as less practical. What's up with that? Minor point though, okay I agree.

3) The game really should have begun in the 19th century, as it was then that urban mass transport initially took off. Around the 1880's would perhaps make a good early start date. By then the following types of transport should be available, partly perhaps modified by city/scenario:

Omnibus (horse drawn) - later replaced by buses.
Tram (horse powered)
Metro (steam trains) - Recall that The London Underground opened in 1863, the Paris Metro in 1900, the Berlin U-Bahn in 1903 and the first practical elevated lines in New York (2nd, 3rd and 6th Avenue Elevated) in 1878. The early lines had steam locomotives pulling passenger cars.

4) I'm not too pleased with the look of the elevated track used. Love the stations though. Why couldn't the rails be made to look like pure Victorian-Edwardian era Steam Punk trusses? Something like this. Note the tram tracks running underneath:
http://gvshp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/1st-Ave-SW-corner-11th-St-1942-NYPL.jpg
In the process of being demolished:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Second_Avenue_El_-_demolition.tif&page=1

 

[giladteller]

Welcome to the forums!

1) You might want to look at eis_os' mod "Tram Coupling". You need to install ModManager and then load his test repository (You will also need to register your game in order to view the first link).

2) Tram tracks in the middle of the avenue is smarter because trams don't get stuck in traffic jams this way.

 

[Gogomaester]

to Gladteller:

He thought it not on Avenues but large streets. We have it in Prague either, that the trams are in the middle and cars are going on rails too.

 

[eis_os]

2) On wider streets, tram rail is always laid on the periphery instead in the middle of the street. This is a relatively less common configuration and generally regarded as less practical. What's up with that? Minor point though, okay I agree.

If you have a lot time and want to puzzle, try my Tram Puzzle Pieces 0.6, it let you build this style, however it's quite hard to use and CIM has not all combinations we really need. This will improve over time as I have some progress creating some new pieces and will someday release a extra pieces pack.

(note screenshot shows an older version of Tram Puzzle Pieces,
cars will still use the inner lanes, however traffic flows better)

 

[unmerged(533560)]

If you have a lot time and want to puzzle, try my Tram Puzzle Pieces 0.6, it let you build this style, however it's quite hard to use and CIM has not all combinations we really need. This will improve over time as I have some progress creating some new pieces and will someday release a extra pieces pack.

(note screenshot shows an older version of Tram Puzzle Pieces,
cars will still use the inner lanes, however traffic flows better)


View attachment 60232

Cool! Hope you keep developing it.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

to Gladteller:

He thought it not on Avenues but large streets. We have it in Prague either, that the trams are in the middle and cars are going on rails too.

Exactly, coming from a great streetcar nation, Gogomaester is of course right. This is what a four lane street with trams normally should look like. I must say I'm fond the concept of street rails altogether, where trams and cars share the same lanes. So damn urban.

Speaking of which, I remember another initial thought I have on this game....

5) The early automobiles are lovely, I agree, but how about also seeing a number of horse drawn carts and carriages, like farmers bringing in eggs and vegatables to sell on the market squares? After all, horses were a pretty common sight in both European and American cities up until the 40's and 50's. With a game (sequel, expansion?) that started in the 1800's or turn of the century, you could have a historical sequence where horsedrawn vehicles (not as many of them) are gradually replaced by automobiles.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Welcome to the forums!

Thank you sir, I'm honored. By the way, I believe that is Stonewall Jackson in your avatar portrait. Am I correct?

1) You might want to look at eis_os' mod "Tram Coupling". You need to install ModManager and then load his test repository (You will also need to register your game in order to view the first link).

Splendid! Someone has been ahead of me.

 

[Gogomaester]

Sadly, there is only one horse powered vehicle, that comes with St. Petersburg DLC and is little bit unusable o

 

[co_martsu]

Back in the day limiting the scope of the game to what it is now was the hardest task we faced. We considered starting from the 19th century, but we really wanted to make the 21st century too. So in the end we went with the 100 years from 1920's to 2020.

I'm all for horses, and would have gladly seen more of them in Cities in Motion And thanks for the feedback about the tracks!

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Back in the day limiting the scope of the game to what it is now was the hardest task we faced. We considered starting from the 19th century, but we really wanted to make the 21st century too. So in the end we went with the 100 years from 1920's to 2020.

I'm all for horses, and would have gladly seen more of them in Cities in Motion And thanks for the feedback about the tracks!

Hey, way cool to get a reply from the Developer Team! I'm glad you like horses and that you at least considered beginning in the 19th century early on. I also see your reasons why you felt you had to drop it. Personally though, as can be judged from my nickname, I would have given the earlier timeframe priority, and not just for aesthetic reasons. I think it's quite important to convey a largelly accurate view of history. To match that with gameplay is not a goal to be dropped lightly. Especially since I believe the fan base of a great game like this to a large extent is made up of nerds and history freaks.

Hmm, about the first point I made, would it be conceivable that sometime in the future you might release a "tram DMC", featuring for instance early 20th century coupled streetcars? A capacity of 10 passengers is a bit on the light side, even from a gameplay point of view. I would love seeing early streetcars that at least could carry 20-30 people.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Sadly, there is only one horse powered vehicle, that comes with St. Petersburg DLC and is little bit unusable o

Haha, I noticed that! Looks good though. Well, as you are aware, I was thinking more along the lines of omnibuses rather than cabs. The latter corresponding of course to modern day "cabs" and taxis, which after all are not a breed of public transport per se.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Buying the game from Steam, I've been playing for a few days now, and I'm beginning to see some fundamental problems with Cities in Motion. Fortunately, these problems also seem pretty easy to fix. Could we hope for a new patch?

I've only been playing the Munich sandbox, starting in 1920, so my experience is based on that. Pardon me if my judgement lacks the sufficient width.


1) In 1920, trams are your main form of transportation. The capacity of trams however is much too low. They also wait too long at stops, waiting for passengers approaching from relatively far off the platform, but lacking capacity is their main gameplay flaw. This means you have to buy an awful lot of trams just to populate a single line, which clogs up the streets, causing congestion, which in turn translates into insufficient transport capacity. Essentially, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Parts of the line turns into a perpetual queue of single trams, crawling forward at a snail's pace at the speed by which stops can be serviced. Near the end of the line you get the impression of a queue of taxi cars rather than a row of trams.

This situation could easily be remedied however, if only passenger capacity was substantally increased. I therefore suggest the following (to be incleded in a patch or similar):

Recommendation:

a) Early trams should go from 10 to at least 25 passengers (and recieve an appropriate trailing tram car to make the graphics look good).

b) Buses are similarly increased from 10 to at least 20 passengers.



2) Motor traffic builds up fast at the beginning of the game, before you know it turning every street and avenue you put a tram or bus on into a crawl fest. Yes, we get the picture, automobiles + public transport cause queues, but there is no reason to overdo it.

Recommendation:

a) Automobile increase could easily be cut in half across the board and still get its gameplay message through.



3) The reason trams are your main transportation branch in 1920 is due to elevated metro stations not being available until 1946, practically prohibiting rapid transit systems to be constructed early on where you need them, i.e through the dense city core. As far as Munich is concerned, this didn't bother me that much. After all, the city didn't get its S-Bahn and U-Bahn until the 1972, in time for the Summer Olympics. In fact, Munich was famous for its streetcars, a potential game Gemütlichkeit that however demands a functional tram system to be realized (see above).
Had this been Berlin or New York however, I would have hated the game for not allowing me to construct the necessary (and historical) infrastructure when needed, where it was needed.

Recommendation:

a) Lift the construction ban on elevated metro stations prior to 1946. It's essentially an ahistorical absurdity that does not help the gameplay or attraction factor of this game a single bit.

b) When you're at it, you might as well reimplement level road crossings for ground level metro. It should be up to the player if he wants to sacrifice functionality (short, awkward looking elevated road crossings) for a realistic look and feel of his/her game (since railway cuts and road bridges or tunneled roads under embankments apparently aren't viable in Cities in Motion).


As it stands, the combination of the abovementioned gameplay flaws essentially leaves us a broken game. There is no reason however not to fix these issues on part of Paradox, and thus improve sales and reputation of this wonderful game. I would find addressing these issues more urgent than releasing another DLC, no matter how great, lovingly detailed or fantastic in general.

 

[douglasrac]

Hi Pre-Modernist,

1)
As a new player I understand that you think the vehicles have low capacity. Most players do. But I highly disagree and many also does.
When Colossal Order launched the new vehicles (ex. cable cars) with higher capacity due to excessive complains about vehicles capacity, it was a sad day for me. The cable cars hold way too many people, making it too easy.
This is not a flaw of the game. The thing is that this game have a learning curve longer than one would expect. Vehicles have enough capacity, you just need to learn how to make routes and network. And the difficult persists every time you start a new map. I can start a game today and I will find it challenging. Because new maps DO offer new challenges. Its completely different every single time. Isn't that great? When people say new maps offer new challenges, in CiM that is actually true. Some people just don't like the feeling of not knowing what to do after playing the game for years. In CiM doesn't matter how experienced you are, you can't just start playing, you must think, otherwise you are doomed.
Some appreciate this, most don't. And unfortunately CO decided in favor of the majority, increasing vehicle capacity and the amount of money you get from start.
As you started the main original campaign, that remains with the original difficulty.

But I do agree that if you play in 1920 you are very limited. The game is good around 1950. But when you play the campaign you don't need a big network to go through the missions.

I recommend reading:
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/FAQ
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/Hints
http://www.cimexchange.com/index.php?/tutorials/category/2-gameplay/
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/Mobility Guide

If you still disagree with me, install a mod to increase vehicles capacity, such as this one: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?522690-MOD-Vehicle-Realism

2) That is a problem related to both: the map design and the way you build your lines. Make sure you use the biggest advantage of tram: they can run outside streets where traffic can't do anything to them.
And second, unfortunately, there is nothing you can do when the map have a bad design. As you can see in Amsterdam, the entire downtown is served by few roads. Then is obvious that traffic jams are inevitable. Just work around this issues. I never dared to make buses in Amsterdam downtown. Only if its very short lines served by metro.
The websites mentioned above can also help with routes design.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Hi Pre-Modernist,

1)
As a new player I understand that you think the vehicles have low capacity. Most players do. But I highly disagree and many also does.
When Colossal Order launched the new vehicles (ex. cable cars) with higher capacity due to excessive complains about vehicles capacity, it was a sad day for me. The cable cars hold way too many people, making it too easy.
This is not a flaw of the game. The thing is that this game have a learning curve longer than one would expect. Vehicles have enough capacity, you just need to learn how to make routes and network. And the difficult persists every time you start a new map. I can start a game today and I will find it challenging. Because new maps DO offer new challenges. Its completely different every single time. Isn't that great? When people say new maps offer new challenges, in CiM that is actually true. Some people just don't like the feeling of not knowing what to do after playing the game for years. In CiM doesn't matter how experienced you are, you can't just start playing, you must think, otherwise you are doomed.
Some appreciate this, most don't. And unfortunately CO decided in favor of the majority, increasing vehicle capacity and the amount of money you get from start.
As you started the main original campaign, that remains with the original difficulty.

But I do agree that if you play in 1920 you are very limited. The game is good around 1950. But when you play the campaign you don't need a big network to go through the missions.

I recommend reading:
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/FAQ
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/Hints
http://www.cimexchange.com/index.php?/tutorials/category/2-gameplay/
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/Mobility Guide

If you still disagree with me, install a mod to increase vehicles capacity, such as this one: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?522690-MOD-Vehicle-Realism

2) That is a problem related to both: the map design and the way you build your lines. Make sure you use the biggest advantage of tram: they can run outside streets where traffic can't do anything to them.
And second, unfortunately, there is nothing you can do when the map have a bad design. As you can see in Amsterdam, the entire downtown is served by few roads. Then is obvious that traffic jams are inevitable. Just work around this issues. I never dared to make buses in Amsterdam downtown. Only if its very short lines served by metro.
The websites mentioned above can also help with routes design.

Thanks for your reply, hints and encouragement! It's much appreciated, and you have convinced me to give the game another try.

Problem though is I don't want to wait until the 50's for the game to function. I like the design of early 20th century buses and trolleys and I want to be able to use them throughout the game for as long as possible. I also like dense older cities - the Eclectic and Jugend architecture of the 19th and turn of the century - rather than the Functionalist, modernist concrete and depressing "highway and garden city" ideals breaking into the mainstream in the 30's. I essentially want to be able to avoid the ugliness and anti-urbanism of everything that's been built ever since. And in those older city environments, tram lines almost without exception ran right in the street where the cars went, including relatively narrow streets at that. If it worked in reality back then, it should work in a modern game portraying the era.

In other words, if you design a game, it should work for all periods you choose to include.

It's partly related to what we want out of a game. Some people want almost unsolvable quizzies, some want an easy game that will reward almost whatever they do, taxing their brains to a very limited extent. I, above all, want a good deal of realism and historical consistency, whether it proves easy or hard. If you could lay down a tram line in a narrow 19th century street in reality, it should be (practically) possible to do the same in game; if you could build elevated city railways over a hundred years ago, you should be able to do it in the 1920's too. If you can afford it, that is.

 

[slornie]

As a new player I understand that you think the vehicles have low capacity. Most players do. But I highly disagree and many also does.
When Colossal Order launched the new vehicles (ex. cable cars) with higher capacity due to excessive complains about vehicles capacity, it was a sad day for me. The cable cars hold way too many people, making it too easy.

I'm of a different mind to you on this. I think that CO was generally correct to increase the vehicle capacity with the DLC vehicles (except where they are inconsistent within and between the DLCs such as with the cable cars), however it would have been better served if they had also patched the capacities of the original vehicles so that they are all on the same scale.

@Pre-Modernist: I don't think those three points are of great enough significance to call the game broken. All three can be considered matters of balance and taken as deliberate choices on the part of the developers. On the other hand, several other commonly raised issues are down to engine limitations: lack of diagonal metro stations, traffic AI frequently blocking itself in, the lack of ground-level metro crossings, and the hard-coded limit of five transport types which necessitates the replacement of trams for the monorail and trolley buses in various DLCs.

 

[douglasrac]

I also appreciate the early 20th century and I like the vehicles design. The problem is that, as you may noticed, the city changes very little from 1920 to 2020. The city should be a lot smaller. Just download a small city and play it on 1920.

I have no idea how was public transportation in big cities in the early 20th century, but probably they didn't have mass transportation systems. As far as I know you cannot create a huge network only with buses. Thus if you play in 1920 you should have some lines but you cannot cover the entire city with buses, because there will be need for metro.

But I might be wrong. I saw once a guy that played Berlin only with buses, and he had a huge network. Don't know where (somewhere in this forum) and I have no idea what he did. Maybe it's possible, but the demand is huge. Can you move the entire Berlin only with buses/trams efficiently? Berlin in 1920 and 2020 changes very little.

Conclusion: the problem remains in the map, not in the vehicles. Maybe CO tried to simulate some of the problems public transportation systems faced in that era.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

I also appreciate the early 20th century and I like the vehicles design. The problem is that, as you may noticed, the city changes very little from 1920 to 2020. The city should be a lot smaller. Just download a small city and play it on 1920.

Well, I really think that the Munich map in 1920 should be practical to play on. Afterall, it's one of the most important cities in Europe. However, if you can't create a functional system using trams and buses just because the city is larger than Helsinki, the problem is not with the map, but with the game.
If anything, the city maps in CiM are also a lot smaller than the cities in reality regardless of the time perod chosen, which is of course only natural since it's a game.

I have no idea how was public transportation in big cities in the early 20th century, but probably they didn't have mass transportation systems. As far as I know you cannot create a huge network only with buses. Thus if you play in 1920 you should have some lines but you cannot cover the entire city with buses, because there will be need for metro.

Actually, London introduced the world's first subway in 1863, Paris followed in 1900, Berlin in 1903 and New York in 1904, and even before then, there had been elevated lines in for example NYC since the 1870's. In addition, by the turn of the century, most cities in Europe as well as in both North and South America had rather extensive tram networks, so yes, mass transportation systems certainly were around in the early 20th century. In fact, public mass transit is an invention of the 19th century, not the 20th. Just to mention one example, Rio de Janeiro opened its first horse drawn tram line in 1859, and, after partly switching to steam powered trams, its first electrified tramway in 1892.

But I might be wrong. I saw once a guy that played Berlin only with buses, and he had a huge network. Don't know where (somewhere in this forum) and I have no idea what he did. Maybe it's possible, but the demand is huge. Can you move the entire Berlin only with buses/trams efficiently? Berlin in 1920 and 2020 changes very little.

Conclusion: the problem remains in the map, not in the vehicles. Maybe CO tried to simulate some of the problems public transportation systems faced in that era.

Could be, but I don't think so. If history be the judge, we should in fact be able to build large and extensive public transport systems, including elevated or underground metro lines, from the earliest point the game. It's up to game designers to make this work. A game where tram after tram can pass by an overcrowded stop without picking anyone up because they are already full, does not provide a realistic depiction of capacity or how tram and bus lines operated in reality. At least a doubling of the early streetcar and bus capacity - up from the meagre limit of 10 passengers - would be the smallest and simplest thing to ask for.

If we want the game to be based on reasonable historical accuracy, that is.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

I'm of a different mind to you on this. I think that CO was generally correct to increase the vehicle capacity with the DLC vehicles (except where they are inconsistent within and between the DLCs such as with the cable cars), however it would have been better served if they had also patched the capacities of the original vehicles so that they are all on the same scale.

@Pre-Modernist: I don't think those three points are of great enough significance to call the game broken. All three can be considered matters of balance and taken as deliberate choices on the part of the developers. On the other hand, several other commonly raised issues are down to engine limitations: lack of diagonal metro stations, traffic AI frequently blocking itself in, the lack of ground-level metro crossings, and the hard-coded limit of five transport types which necessitates the replacement of trams for the monorail and trolley buses in various DLCs.

I agree. Calling it "broken" was a bit of an exaggeration, but I hope I got the message through. To fix that capacity inconcistency, having the aforementioned patch seeing the light of day is only becoming more urgent. Hell, besides (the original) buses and coupled trams with at least doubled capacity, the single car Zossen-1 could perhaps even remain in the line-up, for lines with really limited traffic or people like douglasrac who prefer a challenge.

While Colossal Order are at it, I wish again to press the matter of limiting automobile generation. Since cars aren't even smart enough to switch to open lanes for the most part, cutting the generation rate in half would be a blessing.

 

[douglasrac]

Hey Pre-Modernist,

I can't argue with you anymore, you have more knowledge on public transportation history than I do and I do not know more about the game to keep saying where is the problem.

Thus, I accept your (or is it mine?!) challenge to build a big network in Vienna starting in 1920. It must cover most parts of the city (wouldn't say 100%) and must use only the old vehicles.
But I do play very slowly and grow very carefully so I will probably need at least 15-20 years. Only buses and trams. Is that good enough ? And I will use DLC vehicles. Do you have all DLCs so you can check the game after? Only if I'm successful of course.
My options will be too limited without DLCs. You can check the vehicles here: http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/vehicles.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Hey Pre-Modernist,

I can't argue with you anymore, you have more knowledge on public transportation history than I do and I do not know more about the game to keep saying where is the problem.

Thus, I accept your (or is it mine?!) challenge to build a big network in Vienna starting in 1920. It must cover most parts of the city (wouldn't say 100%) and must use only the old vehicles.
But I do play very slowly and grow very carefully so I will probably need at least 15-20 years. Only buses and trams. Is that good enough ? And I will use DLC vehicles. Do you have all DLCs so you can check the game after? Only if I'm successful of course.
My options will be too limited without DLCs. You can check the vehicles here: http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/vehicles.

Hey Pre-Modernist,

I can't argue with you anymore, you have more knowledge on public transportation history than I do and I do not know more about the game to keep saying where is the problem.

Thus, I accept your (or is it mine?!) challenge to build a big network in Vienna starting in 1920. It must cover most parts of the city (wouldn't say 100%) and must use only the old vehicles.
But I do play very slowly and grow very carefully so I will probably need at least 15-20 years. Only buses and trams. Is that good enough ? And I will use DLC vehicles. Do you have all DLCs so you can check the game after? Only if I'm successful of course.
My options will be too limited without DLCs. You can check the vehicles here: http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/vehicles.

Hey Douglas, it's a good challenge! Being new to the game, I unfortunately don't own any DLC's yet, but thanks a lot for the link provided. Apparently, there are no "normal" early trams provided in the DLC's either, but for capacity one can always use San Francisco cable cars or French doubledeckers, I guess.

What they should have provided are trams like these... with trailers:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/TKR_tram_trailer_110_Turku.jpg
http://train-photos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/3428.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w120/seabral/za forum/ZG FAQ/11-4.jpg
http://maninblue1947.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/014-z-vervoersmuseum23062012.jpg

But even this tram can probably take more than just 10 people:
http://www.thueringer-waldbahn.de/w...alan-murray-rust/murray-rust_gth_245-15_g.jpg