First Impression & Suggestions

[giladteller]

I think that the reason that vehicles in the game are small is because the entire game is scaled down. Here are a few numbers: According to Munich Census from October 1919 (just 2 month before the game begins) the Munich population was 630,711. Let's say that 50% of them are children that are not represented in the game. That leaves us with aprox. 315,000 people. The population of Munich in the game on January 1st 1920 is 11,289. That's about 3.6% of the real population!
The Zossen-Mark 1 tram has a capacity of 10, if we scale it to real life according to the population scale, it should be about 277. I don't think that 277 people could enter that vehicle. (The Zossen-Mark 1 is based on Gothaer Waggonfabrik T1.

 

[unmerged(535439)]

But even this tram can probably take more than just 10 people:
http://www.thueringer-waldbahn.de/w...alan-murray-rust/murray-rust_gth_245-15_g.jpg

Trams like these were still in service in 1947 in Germany, and hell I can tell you: They can even take 10 people on each step, especially if that's the only way to get food.

 

[slornie]

I think that the reason that vehicles in the game are small is because the entire game is scaled down. Here are a few numbers: According to Munich Census from October 1919 (just 2 month before the game begins) the Munich population was 630,711. Let's say that 50% of them are children that are not represented in the game. That leaves us with aprox. 315,000 people. The population of Munich in the game on January 1st 1920 is 11,289. That's about 3.6% of the real population!

The question is, what were the city limits used to define Munich in the 1919 census and does the game map cover the same area? If not, your comparison is meaningless. You also have to consider the game mechanics that require all of those 11,289 cims to move about the map with a bias in favour of motorised transport of some form (not necessarily the case in a real-life city).

The Zossen-Mark 1 tram has a capacity of 10, if we scale it to real life according to the population scale, it should be about 277. I don't think that 277 people could enter that vehicle. (The Zossen-Mark 1 is based on Gothaer Waggonfabrik T1.

You can't scale the vehicle capacity using your guesstimated city scaling, it just doesn't work. The real-life Zossen had a seated capacity of 30, with standing room for another 26. So on that basis, it is either scaled to 1/3 capacity (seats only) or below 1/5 capacity (seats and standing). Compare that with the real-life Maurice Astor which has a capacity of 10 both in game and in reality. Even if you assume that the 30 seated capacity for the T1 is across both cars shown in the image on the page I linked to, that still means the single-car Zossen in game only has 2/3 of its capacity vs the Astor's full capacity.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

I think that the reason that vehicles in the game are small is because the entire game is scaled down. Here are a few numbers: According to Munich Census from October 1919 (just 2 month before the game begins) the Munich population was 630,711. Let's say that 50% of them are children that are not represented in the game. That leaves us with aprox. 315,000 people. The population of Munich in the game on January 1st 1920 is 11,289. That's about 3.6% of the real population!
The Zossen-Mark 1 tram has a capacity of 10, if we scale it to real life according to the population scale, it should be about 277. I don't think that 277 people could enter that vehicle. (The Zossen-Mark 1 is based on Gothaer Waggonfabrik T1.

Considered that reality which adheres to the laws of nature is not the same thing as game design which follows a set of arbitrary programming mechanics, such a scaling comparison, though interesting, is of course irrelevant.

Games can only try to mimick reality from the outside in, not replace reality from the inside out.

The real-life Zossen had a seated capacity of 30, with standing room for another 26.

Splendid! There's a "Zossen" complete with trailer car. Now, Colossal Order even knows what their new and improved early main game streetcar turnout will look like!

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Trams like these were still in service in 1947 in Germany, and hell I can tell you: They can even take 10 people on each step, especially if that's the only way to get food.

I hear you! It's a good thing ladies' fashion in 1947 bombed out Germany did not prescribe hobble skirts!
http://theboweryboys.blogspot.se/2012/08/new-york-subway-system-stymied-by.html

 

[unmerged(501272)]

I'm not a transport or history buff, and when I first started playing CiM it was with all DLC vehicles available, not realising that many were not appropriate for the early eras. The game was far too easy that way, as the high capacities made the challenges trivial. When I ignored the DLC vehicles and limited choices to just the era-appropriate vehicles, it became a LOT harder.
The main problem is that each vehicle needs a driver, so wage costs become high, making it very hard to eke out a profit with low capacity vehicles. But it can be done. I now always play on "hard", with little starting funds and 100% traffic, and use Giladteller's mod for timeline DLC vehicles. I'd certainly agree that private car ownership seems unrealistically high in the 1920's.....

Regarding the "Vienna challenge", the "going green" campaign scenario tasks you with dismantling the metro. I completed it without a single metro, most of the town centre covered by trams, and buses covering the outer suburbs. But this was in 2008, with high capacity vehicles available. Also, I'm not sure if it was supposed to be a "Munich Challenge" from previous thread comments....... I think Vienna's road layout is particularly tram-friendly, so Munich would be a more difficult challenge.

I haven't noticed anyone mention that in a sandbox game, you can set the traffic level under "custom" (adjustable from 20% to 100%). Does this answer one of the original criticisms of traffic levels? Granted this can't be done for the campaign or scenarios, although some level is control is possible via difficulty setting (Easy=60%, Medium=80%, Hard=100%) but this also affects starting money, demolition returns, and banks.

I think CO chose to make a game with balanced numbers, rather than realistic or historically accurate values. And, I find it mostly works. Exceptions being that early trams have too low a capacity (not enough to be useful over buses) and metros are too profitable. That said, the Parisian double decker tram addressed the tram problem for me nicely.

And modding vehicle capacities is always available, to adjust balance whichever way you see fit. For me it was never so "wrong" as to require it. There is another thread where someone declared buses to be useless, but was using a mod that made trams so good, it made buses redundant........ I think it's very hard to set capacities that balance the game perfectly, and very easy to adjust them to break it. I think CO did a great job with their choices, even if their numbers seem "wrong" in historical or realism terms. But this is a debate that has no end.....

 

[TH1]

the double decker tram of Paris is such a great choice that i'm in 1975 and still haven't changed them, because more modern trams have worse parameters...

 

[unmerged(533560)]

I haven't noticed anyone mention that in a sandbox game, you can set the traffic level under "custom" (adjustable from 20% to 100%). Does this answer one of the original criticisms of traffic levels? Granted this can't be done for the campaign or scenarios, although some level is control is possible via difficulty setting (Easy=60%, Medium=80%, Hard=100%) but this also affects starting money, demolition returns, and banks.

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

This was the best piece of advice I've gotten since registraton. Began a new game, set the traffic meter at 20% (default is 80%! ), and now the game is no longer completely dysfunctional!

I'm so happy! :laugh:

 

[unmerged(533560)]

the double decker tram of Paris is such a great choice that i'm in 1975 and still haven't changed them, because more modern trams have worse parameters...

I could imagine a worse fate, but yeah, I get your point.

 

[unmerged(501272)]

Glad that helped.
For completeness: the campaign and scenario challenges only allow the choice of difficulty from three presets (Easy, Normal, Hard).
But when choosing "sandbox", an additional "custom" difficulty appears, allowing you to choose your own combination of values.
Default is "Normal", hence the 80% motoring appearing when you switched to custom.

___________Starting money_____Banks_____Demolition returns_____Private motoring
Easy _________15000____________4__________90%_________________60%
Normal _______12500_____________3__________50%_________________80%
Hard _________10000_____________2__________20%________________100%

Custom ____1000-100000________1-4_________5-90%______________20-100%

And I think I've seen a mod somewhere that allows a broader range of custom values. There was a humerous comment about it's 200% demolition returns providing an endless cash generator....


The "Bertrand" tram is far and away my default choice for early trams. And I find, even in 2000, it's the benchmark others are compared against. Carrying 28, cheap to buy and run, a single carriage length (so no length blockage problems), and quite acceptable speed, attractiveness, and reliability levels. It's an excellent choice whatever it's age. And perhaps it proves the point that the other trams are .... lacking? Maybe it's too good - reduce carrying capacity to 25, perhaps 22, and it's big advantage will vanish.

When I first started playing, the Prospecta Experimental became my default tram choice, until I realised it should not be available until very late (post 2000? 2010? - I'm not sure). So while 1920's trams and buses seemed OK because of the excellent DLC vehicles ignoring the timeline, this was obviously not realistic.

At the end of the day, it's possible to mod the stats to get exactly what you want, which is great.
But it's important to remember that rigorously setting vehicle capacities to their real values will simply break the game, because the rest of CiM is not realistic that way. The early buses and trams carrying 10 barely break even, and you have to have stop queues building up with red faces, because having enough vehicles to keep up with demand will have them running at a loss. Increasing to 12 feels right, maybe 14, but I suspect going beyond 15 will break the balance and make it trivial to earn a large profit. That would be a 50% increase in revenue from 50% more passengers, while costs remain exactly the same....

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Glad that helped.
For completeness: the campaign and scenario challenges only allow the choice of difficulty from three presets (Easy, Normal, Hard).
But when choosing "sandbox", an additional "custom" difficulty appears, allowing you to choose your own combination of values.
Default is "Normal", hence the 80% motoring appearing when you switched to custom.

___________Starting money_____Banks_____Demolition returns_____Private motoring
Easy _________15000____________4__________90%_________________60%
Normal _______12500_____________3__________50%_________________80%
Hard _________10000_____________2__________20%________________100%

Custom ____1000-100000________1-4_________5-90%______________20-100%

And I think I've seen a mod somewhere that allows a broader range of custom values. There was a humerous comment about it's 200% demolition returns providing an endless cash generator....


The "Bertrand" tram is far and away my default choice for early trams. And I find, even in 2000, it's the benchmark others are compared against. Carrying 28, cheap to buy and run, a single carriage length (so no length blockage problems), and quite acceptable speed, attractiveness, and reliability levels. It's an excellent choice whatever it's age. And perhaps it proves the point that the other trams are .... lacking? Maybe it's too good - reduce carrying capacity to 25, perhaps 22, and it's big advantage will vanish.

When I first started playing, the Prospecta Experimental became my default tram choice, until I realised it should not be available until very late (post 2000? 2010? - I'm not sure). So while 1920's trams and buses seemed OK because of the excellent DLC vehicles ignoring the timeline, this was obviously not realistic.

At the end of the day, it's possible to mod the stats to get exactly what you want, which is great.
But it's important to remember that rigorously setting vehicle capacities to their real values will simply break the game, because the rest of CiM is not realistic that way. The early buses and trams carrying 10 barely break even, and you have to have stop queues building up with red faces, because having enough vehicles to keep up with demand will have them running at a loss. Increasing to 12 feels right, maybe 14, but I suspect going beyond 15 will break the balance and make it trivial to earn a large profit. That would be a 50% increase in revenue from 50% more passengers, while costs remain exactly the same....

I think in overall terms they should have set a different "architecture" of the game, where fewer trams were taking more passengers, so that you actually had to plan your network with the most profitable routes in mind. Now I'm even avoiding the most heavily pedestrian populated areas - i.e those most in need of public transport - like the "Spittelmarkt" in Munich for example, simply cause I couldn't handle the massive buildup at the stops.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Welcome to the forums!

1) You might want to look at eis_os' mod "Tram Coupling". You need to install ModManager and then load his test repository (You will also need to register your game in order to view the first link).

Sorry, but does "register" here refer to the game's activation key or some form of registration on this website?

I tried to play Cities in Motion intensively for a few weeks (I purchased it through Steam), but never did the game ask for the activation key for some reason. Possibly it's because I only played sandbox mode and couldn't bother with the campaigns. I found them rather dulll and above all, I don't like being led by the hand. I want to be in independent and complete control of my world.

 

[giladteller]

The cd key is for registering on this forum. It will give you access to the tech support and mods forums.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?523132-***Why-you-should-register-your-game-and-HOW***
The game is DRM free and does not require any activation (you can run it directly from the .exe file even without steam running).

 

[unmerged(533560)]

The cd key is for registering on this forum. It will give you access to the tech support and mods forums.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?523132-***Why-you-should-register-your-game-and-HOW***
The game is DRM free and does not require any activation (you can run it directly from the .exe file even without steam running).

Thanks giladteller! Sorry, I had to bother the community by this question. Stupid me just discovered the relevant sticky! :laugh:

 

[slornie]

Sorry, but does "register" here refer to the game's activation key or some form of registration on this website?

Register means link your game to your forum account. E.g. copy the forum registration key from Steam (right click on Cities in Motion in the library, it should be under CD key). Steam tends to automatically activate games on first launch after install, so you wouldn't normally expect to have or need to use an activation code.

EDIT: Whoops. Seems giladteller got there first! :rofl:

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Register means link your game to your forum account. E.g. copy the forum registration key from Steam (right click on Cities in Motion in the library, it should be under CD key). Steam tends to automatically activate games on first launch after install, so you wouldn't normally expect to have or need to use an activation code.

EDIT: Whoops. Seems giladteller got there first! :rofl:

Alright, slornie, just registered. "Tram Coupling" mod, here we go!

 

[unmerged(605359)]

So far I play this game allot more in months great! Looking forword into CIM2. These forums are great!

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Welcome to the forums!

1) You might want to look at eis_os' mod "Tram Coupling". You need to install ModManager and then load his test repository (You will also need to register your game in order to view the first link).

2) Tram tracks in the middle of the avenue is smarter because trams don't get stuck in traffic jams this way.

Sorry I had to come back and ask more questions. Installed Mod Manager and after downloading the .GS Reader to read .GS-files the Mod Manager showed up on the game's Main Menu. So far so good. What I don't understand is how to add the "test repository" in the above to the game. Should I copy the code and paste it somewhere?

Also looked for a "Tram Coupling" mod by eis_os at the Cities in Motion Wiki mod page, but couldn't find any.

 

[eis_os]

Did you read the text file in the ModManager zip archive?

Fast Mode:
You create an addons folder where your Cities in Motion.exe is found, copy the modmanager gs file there, don't extract the gs archive*, start CIM, click install ModManager, CIM will quit, start CIM, Click->Modmanager -> click Tab Settings, click on add repository. In the input field, write the Repository URL:

http://cim.bytetransfer.de/test/test.repo

.
Go to the install tab and install tram coupling addon.


Or in pretty pictures, but insert my test repository.
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/Ready+to+Play





*Extracting ModManager will influence the ModManager update system.
Putting ModManager into the right folder is enough.

 

[unmerged(533560)]

Did you read the text file in the ModManager zip archive?

Fast Mode:
You create an addons folder where your Cities in Motion.exe is found, copy the modmanager gs file there, don't extract the gs archive*, start CIM, click install ModManager, CIM will quit, start CIM, Click->Modmanager -> click Tab Settings, click on add repository. In the input field, write the Repository URL:

http://cim.bytetransfer.de/test/test.repo

.
Go to the install tab and install tram coupling addon.


Or in pretty pictures, but insert my test repository.
http://citiesinmotion.wikispaces.com/Ready+to+Play



*Extracting ModManager will influence the ModManager update system.
Putting ModManager into the right folder is enough.

The only reason I extracted the modmanager files into the addon folder in the Cities in Motion file was that I couldn't find a way to copy the .rar contents in Windows 7. Don't ask, I'm an idiot.

Hopefully, I'll make it work anyway by following your excellent guide. Thanks!