• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

K W

Evil Lawyer
108 Badges
Apr 13, 2008
613
150
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Divine Wind
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Deus Vult
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
Dear Werewolf players -- let's have a talk, shall we. ;)

Some time ago I was an excessive Werewolf player and even run a small Werewolf club in my city. But becoming older, I did not have the time to continue playing Werewolf regularly with friends, hence I resorted at some point to the Internet; playing and GMing a good deal of Werewolf games online as well, although not on English-speaking forums. I knew for a long time that this sub-forum existed and hosted Werwolf games. However, until now, I didn't have the inclination to study your specific Werewolf "culture" in detail. That's because you play an unusual and unique type of Werewolf (the "big" games, not the "light" games, mind you) -- at least for someone who played more games in RL than online. It was somewhat deterring and didn't create a wish to participate, but as Werwolf has long been one of my passions, I finally decided to study the games and the rules in this forum more extensively. While I'm certainly not radically opposed to try out something new, I also can't help but wonder what has happened to something I call Classical Werewolf.

In case you don't know what "classical" in this context means: It's all the role cards from the original real-life game, Les loups-garous de Thiercelieux ("Die Werwölfe von Düsterwald", in German), a role-play card game you can buy in any good department store. It's also without the two expansions, although you could occasionally mix some expansion cards with the classical cards. That means we have villagers and werevoles (in RL games, they usually constituted 1/3 of the total number of players, as it's extremely difficult for newbies to survive as a werewolf), as well as a seeress, a witch, a hunter, an amor, a girl, a thief and a captain (aka the mayor). Played as defined by the original rules, and with no traits or other "mumbo jumbo". Obviously, the girl can't work in an online game like in real life, so here was often the space for the GM to live out his creativity by creating a completely new and unique role for every game, in the same way as you apparently do all the time in your "big" games. ;)

Also, it looks like most games in the forum here are conducted in what I call "open" mode, meaning that communication between players outside the game thread is allowed. You may call me a conservative, but as in RL Werewolf games you aren't allowed to whisper something in somebody's ear (or, if not forbidden, usually killed by your fellow players out of suspicion when they witness you doing so), it shouldn't also be allowed online. I've played enough open online games to believe that while they're certainly interesting and exciting, they 1. quickly tend to get out of hand, with one side reaching early dominance and crushing the other side, 2. are unfair to players who are not open to all channels of communication, 3. don't make as much fun for the GM (from my own experience), as s/he doesn't know what happens behind the scenes, 4. hamper discussion in the game thread and make it to some point irrelevant, as indicated by the last of your "big" Werewolf games with 26 players, which only managed to produce 37 pages -- while I very often played "closed" online Werewolf games with just 16 players reaching the same number of pages quite easily (and without GM AAR and other post-game discussions that inflates the number). From time to time we also played, as a compromise, "semi-open" games, where communication was restricted to a limited number of PMs per day and always with CC to the GM, who would then notify the village of any communication happening in the first post of the thread. That would also work quite well when the game was primarily aimed at experienced players. It also starts quite entertaining discussions as soon as the seeress dies and people begin to suspiciously debate the communications log. :D

I must admit that I always viewed online Werwolf as a substitute for RL-werwolfing, hence I think that an online game should come as close as possible to a real game. I mean, the classical rules are well-constructed and contributed to the popularity of this game for a reason. By no means I wish to contest the current rules and traditions you established here; I acknowledge that they have obviously evolved through the ages of an internet community; but I wish to inquire if there is any possibility to host a classical Werewolf game, as I have outlined, sometime in the near future? Seeing as the number of games is restricted by the moderators, I don't wish to block you and your entertainment, as you definitely have precedence by virtue of being and belonging longer to this forum than a nonentity like me. However, I hope that at least some people are curious and open-minded about what I've written and willing to risk a little experiment. If it fails, I will just be quiet forever and never bother you again. ;)

Such a classical game would probably fall exactly in between "lite" and "big" versions of the Werewolf games you play and should therefore be coordinated with all other "authorities" in respect to werwolfing in this forum. If there is some interest in "Classical Werewolf" I will gladly write down all the classical rules in detail and we can proceed to make preparations for such a game by talking to the moderators, game masters in the waiting list -- who obviously shouldn't be challenged for a game slot without their consent -- and any other people that could be affected by such an endeavour.

All of this is an invitation, not a demand. After all, I'm not a werewolf, please believe me! :eek: :D
 
Good thread, would read again.

If you manage to get your idea off the ground, you have my support and participation. Others will be here soon to discuss the merit of Paradox Werewolf etc.
 
Classical werewolf? You mean Mafia, the game invented by the Soviets to show how the small group of upper class could control and manipulate the ill informed common folk, but also how the common folk could overthrow them?

I'd link you to wikipedia, but wikipedia won't load for me :(

But yes, I know classic Mafia. We've tried introducing ideas from there, such as no PMs, but the player base here completely rejected them.
 
I don't mind something different now and then. As our current system includes a vote for the next GM (with a concept presented), you are free to run for GM whenever you wish. Be aware that you will likely have to cope with a lower amount of players though, some are always quite suspicious.

That is, unless you can bribe Jacob or Blade! into giving you your own game to run simultaneously.
 
There is no sensible way of preventing private contact over the internet. Forbidding it is, IMO, pointless since some people will break the rule.

Heck, seeing as some of the players apparently end up in the same pub, they might even break it without being aware of it (ie. too drunk).

So all in all, trying to forbid something you can't enforce is just pointless. Better to put your efforts into making sure private contact doesn't dominate the game AND isn't the only source of fun in the game.
 
There is no sensible way of preventing private contact over the internet. Forbidding it is, IMO, pointless since some people will break the rule.

Heck, seeing as some of the players apparently end up in the same pub, they might even break it without being aware of it (ie. too drunk).

So all in all, trying to forbid something you can't enforce is just pointless. Better to put your efforts into making sure private contact doesn't dominate the game AND isn't the only source of fun in the game.

Yes but by that vain, whats to stop people creating another account and joining as a new player. Its all about trust and the fun of the game.

Kind regards, Euro... I mean Adamus ;)
 
If you wish to start such a game, sign up to GM over at the werewolf vote thread and propose to run it. If you get the vote, you get to run with it.
It's that simple.

That being said, this discussion sort of belongs in the existing general werewolf discussion threads. I suspect a lot of folks aren't seeing this one due to the tremendous amount of games going on in this place nowadays.
 
Yes but by that vain, whats to stop people creating another account and joining as a new player. Its all about trust and the fun of the game.

Kind regards, Euro... I mean Adamus ;)

Adamus, I love you man.
 
The main reason why "Classic" Werewolf isn't played here is because it was not created for a forum. It was created to be played in one sitting, with more discussion and less analysis. While the classic role composition may be applied to the games as we play them, you cannot recreate the feel. Plus, as it was already pointed out, people WILL cheat.

Also, I think the live game with the playing cards(I used to play them with a simple deck of cards) requires more luck and less skill than the forum counterpart.

Just my two cents.
 
Sorry I didn't answer earlier, my courage slipped away yesterday in fear of discovering "What? Go away, retard!" responses, but that fear was obviously not justified. ;)

Good thread, would read again.

If you manage to get your idea off the ground, you have my support and participation. Others will be here soon to discuss the merit of Paradox Werewolf etc.

I'm honoured that the Paradox Werwolf Grandmaster (;)) is sympathetic to my ideas. Thank you!

Classical werewolf? You mean Mafia, the game invented by the Soviets to show how the small group of upper class could control and manipulate the ill informed common folk, but also how the common folk could overthrow them?

Well, not exactly. Mafia is the foundation from which Werewolf evolved. While the games are somewhat similar and draw heavily from the same basic concept, there are also notable differences, e.g. that all players must stand up and perform a defense speech on the first day, even if they're not nominated for execution.

But yes, I know classic Mafia. We've tried introducing ideas from there, such as no PMs, but the player base here completely rejected them.

I hope that I can convince at least some people otherwise. ;)

Yeh would interested in this, partially because the OP was so well written.

Thank you. :)

I don't mind something different now and then. As our current system includes a vote for the next GM (with a concept presented), you are free to run for GM whenever you wish. Be aware that you will likely have to cope with a lower amount of players though, some are always quite suspicious.

Well, I fortunately don't have a problem with that; IMHO small rounds have a charm of its own.

That is, unless you can bribe Jacob or Blade! into giving you your own game to run simultaneously.

Jacob has already written a PM to me I feel I should have already answered yesterday; but I actually don't intend to "bribe" or "persuade" the moderators if so many people in this thread suggested I should just go ahead and run for GM. Which is, however, somewhat regrettable, as I had hoped that my first game here would be as player, and not as GM. In general I don't covet the GM office, considering that it's the GM that has all the work and the blame if something goes wrong.

There is no sensible way of preventing private contact over the internet. Forbidding it is, IMO, pointless since some people will break the rule.

There's also no sensible way of preventing RL players from illegal blinking during the night phase. Or online player ghosts that continue to influence the game illegaly. People who break the rules are, in the end, primarily harming themselves as they are denied from experiencing all the exciting aspects of the game: The speculation, the psychological games, the scheming, the gambling, the sometimes insane analyses, the WTF moments, the satisfaction of triumph and the thrill of a close defeat.

Also, it's not like there wouldn't be any deterrent from breaking the rules, as I see that you've already installed some punishments for ghosts illegaly influencing the game. Remember that communication is always two-sided, so even if we would assume a rule breaker rate of let's say 10 percent, the chances that both sides would deliberately break the rules are just 1 percent.

So all in all, trying to forbid something you can't enforce is just pointless. Better to put your efforts into making sure private contact doesn't dominate the game AND isn't the only source of fun in the game.

While I certainly understand the sentiment, I would say just because something isn't 100 percent enforceable it doesn't mean that one shouldn't try. Otherwise speed limits would have been abolished long ago. ;) And, as I fully believe you that the reluctance to play such a game would be high, I would certainly consider -- in order to alleviate the culture shock -- to try a semi-open game first.

Its all about trust and the fun of the game.

Indeed.

If you wish to start such a game, sign up to GM over at the werewolf vote thread and propose to run it. If you get the vote, you get to run with it.
It's that simple.

That being said, this discussion sort of belongs in the existing general werewolf discussion threads. I suspect a lot of folks aren't seeing this one due to the tremendous amount of games going on in this place nowadays.

I'm sorry for that, especially as I did it in purpose. As I said, I studied this forum closely and was, at the end, torn between opening a new thread and posting it into the Werwolf General Planning Thread. But my ego won and I decided to elevate this matter to an own thread. :(

The main reason why "Classic" Werewolf isn't played here is because it was not created for a forum. It was created to be played in one sitting, with more discussion and less analysis. While the classic role composition may be applied to the games as we play them, you cannot recreate the feel.

It's true that it's harder to recreate the feel, but not impossible. I had several online games that were extremely close to a real game (probably the best one as a mixed couple where werewolf-me and my villager-lover managed to win); where you would even feel the tension after shutting down the computer.

Also, I think the live game with the playing cards(I used to play them with a simple deck of cards) requires more luck and less skill than the forum counterpart.

It's definitely the other way round. In a real game, you have to be both very skilled in reading other people as well as acting. You don't have the time to consider every possibility and to carefully devise a strategy. It's definitely easier for the less-skilled player when sitting with a laptop in the tranquility of your garden, since intelligence, analysis and logical deduction don't seem to be a problem for the average Paradox Forum user, provided s/he has enough time. ;)

Well, I think that now I'll need a little bit of time to weigh my options, answer some PMs, etc. Especially as I feel still a little bit uncomfortable to just storm in and claim a GMship in spite of being a complete "newbie" to this forum.
 
I remember being on of the main opponents of the no PM rule when it came up during my time because of the lack of tools available to enforce it. However I don't see why It couldn't work on the honor code.
 
Agreed. WW here already works on the honor code. You trust the GM's to be honest, the players not to make multiple accounts, give away info through PM post mortem etc. There's no preventing cheating in these games period really.
If you want to try a 'classical werewolf' game here, but are worried about people's reactions you could always start with a lite. We've used all kinds of crazy setups for them already, and no one will mind.
 
I remember being on of the main opponents of the no PM rule when it came up during my time because of the lack of tools available to enforce it. However I don't see why It couldn't work on the honor code.

Agreed. WW here already works on the honor code. You trust the GM's to be honest, the players not to make multiple accounts, give away info through PM post mortem etc. There's no preventing cheating in these games period really.
If you want to try a 'classical werewolf' game here, but are worried about people's reactions you could always start with a lite. We've used all kinds of crazy setups for them already, and no one will mind.

I'm currently writing down the rules and will then decide how to proceed.
 
Would you mind posting a link to the rules of the game you are referring to?
 
Would you mind posting a link to the rules of the game you are referring to?

I'm afraid that the official rules aren't available online -- and I have for obvious reasons only the card game with rules that are written in German. That's the reason I decided to write down the rules I know by myself in English and already adapted to a forum game.

EDIT: I will, however, add pictures of the original cards from the classical game for flavour. :cool:
 
Last edited:
I would join this kind of game, definitely. Please post a link to the game on this thread.
 
Another reason why werewolf turned out this way here is that most of the player base didn't even know there was a real life werewolf/mafia to begin with. Obviously some of the people who introduced us to werewolf must have known but I remember the first time when a RL werewolf player turned up and was surprised you could play werewolf online - and how most, if not all of us, were likewise startled that you could play werewolf as a real life party game. Hm, this actually explains why The Gonzo who was the very first GM was one of the advocates for the no PM type of games.
 
I would be willing to experiment with this style of gameplay, but I beleive that I prefer the current model.

I am open to having my opinions changed through experience, however.
 
As far as I know the current crop of Dutch werewolf players have all played the game in RL. I knew about RL werewolf before I joined in here. For some being able to play werewolf online was even a reason to join the forum (see the Rysz invasion of 2010). Perhaps it's just better known in the Netherlands.

I am not opposed to trying a more classical approach. However some of the roles will not work well online unless that person is online at the right time. Like the witch who can save someone after seeing what role that person has. It would lead either to annoying delays or to players being able to guess who the witch is based on who is online. It's because I know the RL game I am a bit sceptical of just copying it to online play without requiring everyone to be online at the same time. However a more classical inclined game should be fun and will be a good experience to those who have only played online.