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harmonius

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Jul 14, 2012
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It seems tier 1 units are OP. They are strong enough and extremely cheap. Tier 1 units are much more useful than tier 2 units.
2-3 Goblin Archers are enough to defeat Werewolves or Demons. Loot from Werewolf lair is 150-200 gold. Loot from Demon lair (imp-mages) is 150-200 mana and super spell like "Summon Earth Elemental". Goblin Archers cost 20 gold and have 7 Attack. Goblin Sharpshooters cost 120 gold, have 10 Attack and suffer from lighting combo. So I don't see reasons to use Goblin Sharpshooters. Better I build hordes of Goblin Archers from many cities.
 
It seems tier 1 units are OP. They are strong enough and extremely cheap. Tier 1 units are much more useful than tier 2 units ...

This is only true under 2 conditions not present in this game: Unlimited time and unlimited (troop positioning) space.

Regards,
Thorsten
 
I play the opposite way, I try to upgrade my units ASAP. Usually I play as Humans and trying to conquer Cities with Warriors is a pain, upgrading to Veterans makes it much easier. It’s the same with most of the Human units I think.
 
Oh oh oh...
Temple units - OP
Undead - OP
Mercs - OP
Elves - OP
And now T1 unins - OP as well.
Harmonius calm down, EVERYTHING is OP aganist YOU, and stop making this topics.
 
Goblin Sharpshooters are really bad, but many other tier 2 units are worth building.
The problem with the goblin archers horde is that you need to make many buildings in many cities to produce them, so you will get less mana and less gold. It’s a good rushing strategy but also risky.

“But I play multiplayer only. So I consider only effective strategies” - harmonius

Since harmonius(kovyrus) is a multiplayer specialist, I think he should be playing the MP tournament, to show how effective his strategies are.

I played against him once and he is not bad. It would be good to have him competing.
 
Oh oh oh...
Temple units - OP
Undead - OP
Mercs - OP
Elves - OP
And now T1 unins - OP as well.
Harmonius calm down, EVERYTHING is OP aganist YOU, and stop making this topics.
Temple units are not OP. They sucks. It was my mistake.
Undead are OP.
Mercs are OP.
Elves are not OP. I never said "Elves are OP".
T1 units are OP.
I will create so many topics that I want.
 
Goblin Sharpshooters are really bad, but many other tier 2 units are worth building.
The problem with the goblin archers horde is that you need to make many buildings in many cities to produce them, so you will get less mana and less gold. It’s a good rushing strategy but also risky.

“But I play multiplayer only. So I consider only effective strategies” - harmonius

Since harmonius(kovyrus) is a multiplayer specialist, I think he should be playing the MP tournament, to show how effective his strategies are.

I played against him once and he is not bad. It would be good to have him competing.
I don't want to play now. I want to create topics.
 
Temple units are not OP. They sucks. It was my mistake.
Elves are not OP. I never said "Elves are OP".
I will create so many topics that I want.
BTW temple units are "OP" in your language, its's just you, using 'em wrong.
Still you haven't discouraged 2Coats when he asked in tournament topic about elves.
I don't want to play now. I want to create topics.
Here is another dozen of suggestions for you:
Mages are OP111
Lords are OP111
Sunbeam is OP111
Lightning is OP111
Ice ring is OP111
Ice trap is OP111
Settlers are OP111
Druids are OP111
Summons are OP111
Building any troops when playing versus harmonious is a most OP among OP EVER!111
Go for it my boy!
P.S.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
BTW temple units are "OP" in your language, its's just you, using 'em wrong.
Still you haven't discouraged 2Coats when he asked in tournament topic about elves.

Here is another dozen of suggestions for you:
Mages are OP111
Lords are OP111
Sunbeam is OP111
Lightning is OP111
Ice ring is OP111
Ice trap is OP111
Settlers are OP111
Druids are OP111
Summons are OP111
Building any troops when playing versus harmonious is a most OP among OP EVER!111
Go for it my boy!
P.S.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
I love you.
 
I dont know what you all mean under OP. But I use to play with lot of the tier 1 units, especially archers. They have the best price-performance ratio.

In the beginning of the game you are mainly out of gold, mana, food. All stuff like the mercs or tier 2 and elite units costs too much und the upkeep for the producting buildings and for them themself is too high.

Archers is the simple way to protect your cities. I product in one ( or two) military city an archer for every town I have. The core of my army are heroes and some temple units, 1-2 tier 2 units or 2-3 elite units. Thats more than enough for rush expansion.

I use very seldom the mercs, I prefeare to take an unit improvment from this perk. Its mainly cheaper and more usefull.

At the end game it makes no difference anymore wich unit I product, I have enough ressources, but the handling of more than 8-10 units in my main army is very tediously for me. Some good buffed and well perked battle units make the game more dynamic and effective then huge useless army.
 
It seems tier 1 units are OP. They are strong enough and extremely cheap. Tier 1 units are much more useful than tier 2 units.
2-3 Goblin Archers are enough to defeat Werewolves or Demons. Loot from Werewolf lair is 150-200 gold. Loot from Demon lair (imp-mages) is 150-200 mana and super spell like "Summon Earth Elemental". Goblin Archers cost 20 gold and have 7 Attack. Goblin Sharpshooters cost 120 gold, have 10 Attack and suffer from lighting combo. So I don't see reasons to use Goblin Sharpshooters. Better I build hordes of Goblin Archers from many cities.

It is of course true that T1 units are more cost effective than T2 units if you do a simple comparison of base level units. Using your example, a Goblin Archer is much more damaging for its cost and maintenace than a Goblin Sharpshooter. The problem with the overpowered effect of the Lightning combo is another matter and that is something that needs fixing for MP.

But what you're missing is that a Goblin Archer is limited to a range of 2 and so only a limited number can be brought to bear on a given target. The Sharpshooter may only offer 45% more damage but it is concentrated onto one tile. It might be true that 3 Goblin Archers provide more firepower than 2 Sharpshooters but what if only 2 units can get into range due to terrain or movement restrictions? The Sharpshooters clearly win in that situation.

Then there is the significant advantage once perks are added, be they expensive ones costing gold, or spells costing mana and casting turns or the hard earned perks from experience. All these perks are valuable and they are better if applied to a Goblin Sharpshooter than a Goblin Archer, they do more damage and are better protected (due to more HP) against counter attack. Once you have unit that is level 4, has Frost weapon cast on it and you've spent 200 gold buying various perks it is absurd to suggest that it is better as a T1 rather than take its upgrade to T2 where it has more damage and more HP. The cost of upgrading is small compared to the value of the unit, and it is a very cost effective way to increase the value of the unit, only fear of the Lightning combo would hold back. Not all upgrades from T1 to T2 increases the risk, for instance the Rogue to Cutthroat upgrade is nearly always worthwhile for a well perked unit. What I do, and I expect most other players do too, is build T1 units and then when the right time is reached upgrade to T2 to consolidate the investment in the perks.

So you are not entirely correct to suggest that the T1 units are OP versus their T2 counterparts. That only applies when comparing base level units. As soon as expensive perks are considered or there is not enough room to use a lot of weak but cost effective T1 units then the advantages quickly disappear or at least become more complicated to assess. What you suggest might be true in some early game situations in MP (where games often don't go on for long anyway) but in the longer SP games I play the value of basic T1 units rapidly falls off. Once I have a lot of cities a few T1 units are useful as garrisons in every third city say, to protect against the monster events and quests that pop up. But they are not that useful in real wars against the AI or clearing other worlds.

T1 units without perks often die in one shot from a Greater Fire Elemental or a Dragon, and easily get killed if there are several monsters that gang up on them due to low HP so they are not worth putting in dangerous positions. If you put enough perks on them to survive those situations then you may as well upgrade them, it is often the most cost effective way to improve a unit. Also there is the time and trouble aspect; even though they are cost effective it is not worth the effort to move a T1 unit for several turns across the board just so it can die in one turn. If I use disposable units that are unperked T1s in the middle or late game they tend to be generated locally and if they survive become the garrison for that area.

Anyway, those are my comments on the relative value of T1 units, mostly in SP situations but I think much of it would apply to a MP game that lasted long enough.

JJ
 
You can play in many ways when you play vs AI. It is simple. But I play multiplayer only. So I consider only effective strategies.

I knew that multiplayer encourage people to use the simplest strategy possible, but isn't that a little bit too simple, not upgrading units. How long are these games when you can survive with a strategy like that?
 
I knew that multiplayer encourage people to use the simplest strategy possible, but isn't that a little bit too simple, not upgrading units. How long are these games when you can survive with a strategy like that?
Multiplayer does not encorage you to use the simplest strategy possible, single player does that. The AI is so easy to defeat that any strategy you use works. On 1x1 games against the AI I usually win under 20 turns. On multiplayer you need to adapt to your advesary and is where the real fun is.
 
For me that doesn't sounds fun at all. Playing a game that last for 20 turns? Not for me. I like to play on large or huge maps, a game I can play for several days, that's what I consider fun.

The game last for 20 turns against the AI. Against real people its never so easy. Humans don't play like robots that always does the same stupid mistakes.
 
The game last for 20 turns against the AI. Against real people its never so easy. Humans don't play like robots that always does the same stupid mistakes.
I always play on extra large map with 8 impossible ai opponents. You cant take them down so fast there and have a chance to build up army of mercs or t2/t3 units. Extra rules involve no diplomacy as in if they declare war it is permanent. It can get tough to fight on 3 fronts with ai that very clearly spamming high level units.

Multiplayer with pure turn based system is completely unplayable to me. 50 turns x 2 player x 3 minutes = 5 hours.

I seriously hope they fix one or the another.
 
I always play on extra large map with 8 impossible ai opponents. You cant take them down so fast there and have a chance to build up army of mercs or t2/t3 units. Extra rules involve no diplomacy as in if they declare war it is permanent. It can get tough to fight on 3 fronts with ai that very clearly spamming high level units.

Multiplayer with pure turn based system is completely unplayable to me. 50 turns x 2 player x 3 minutes = 5 hours.

I seriously hope they fix one or the another.

Extra large maps are unplayable on MP. But if you want to try MP, use a small map, 1x1, with great continent or great land. A game with these settings will usually be over under 2 hours. Sometimes a game really takes 5 hours, but MP is so fun that is a time well spent.
 
This is only true under 2 conditions not present in this game: Unlimited time and unlimited (troop positioning) space.

Regards,
Thorsten
I have to agree with you here.

Tier 1 units are very cost effective and you should use them for quite a while at the start of the game. Most people I think trying to go up to tier 2 too quickly. I typically play on Huge map vs 8 AI on Impossible. I easily end up with wars on 3-4 fronts against them and also easily hold my own.

Spamming T1 units is the way to go in most regards. Sure they may die in 1 hit to some monsters, but when you consider they cost you 20-30 gold it's like so what. It's better than having a unit that cost 100-150 gold that barely manages to survive with only a few HP left or worst yet survives the first hit but then is killed by a 2nd blow from another nearby enemy.

With range 2 you can surround a single unit with 18 archers so it'll be a while before you run out of units to bring to the front. However at some point you'll start reaching saturation point where you can't bring anymore units to the front lines and even rotating units while some heal in the back is not enough. At this point when you either can't bring more units within attack range or your cities have constant troop production yet you still have lots of gold to spare, then it's time to start looking to upgrade because units that can't contribute are no better then stockpiles of gold/mana you can't spend.

T1 units do have some weaknesses again AoE spells but most of them are easy to counter if you know how. And most of them don't show up until later in the game.

Most of my games involve spamming lots of T1 units and then slowly upgrading as I get enough gold and run out of room to cram them in. In MP though I learned not to spam them as much thanks to human players actually being much smarter about AoE spell usage than the AI. However I still spam them I just have them spaced out more and do the rotating front line a bit more.

Though human players can be more easy to manipulate at times than the AI. I hear people complain that the AI doesn't focus fire and take down a strong unit because it instead aims to take out the ones it can do the most damage to. Yet I've noticed several players focus fire on the strongest unit in an effort to take it out. If they lack enough fire power they are effectively wasting their effort though. As I heal or simply retreat the high HP/Resist unit. So I've seen players throw all their energy into killing a that one tank unit while the army of 8+ archer units rips into their forces cutting away at their fire power. I view it similar to Raiding in MMOs, you kill the trash mobs first so you can focus on the BOSS. Anyone who's ever done raiding knows this and that ignoring the trash mobs is the surest way to get a wipe as you want to lower the DPS your side is taking.
 
Extra large maps are unplayable on MP. But if you want to try MP, use a small map, 1x1, with great continent or great land. A game with these settings will usually be over under 2 hours. Sometimes a game really takes 5 hours, but MP is so fun that is a time well spent.

I wouldnt ever try extra large :)
Jumped into some random mp today to test it out. Some dude spent 4 minutes on his first turn and then around 3 on each subsequent. Sadly i had elemental near my town and pulled it way too close + lost 2 starting units and 2 settlers, so I just conceded as there was zero point for me to continue.

I would love to play mutliplayer against someone that thinks and acts fast instead of overanalyzing his every simplest move. It isnt chess championship. Other than that im waiting till multiplayer gets out of beta (+next dlc) and maybe i will try to hook up with some people, add them on steam and then start to playing seriously.