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At Paradox Development Studio Crunch Time is always at the end of the project, if there's a Crunch Time. I have heard horror stories from friends working at other studios of work until or after midnight and having to take a taxi home because buses and trains stopped going hours ago. A friend of mine has been working late three days a week or more, clocking up an extra 20 to 40 hours per month. It can be dreadful and you might not even get paid for the overtime. Dinner is almost always provided though, either the company provides the food or if you pay for it yourself they will reimburse you for it. I haven't heard anything about relationships going south because of crunch time, most of my friends that work in the games industry and are in a relationship has a very understanding spouse/partner that might even her/himself be working at a games company. At PDS, you finish your work tasks and if you need to work an extra hour or more to do it, you do it. What I know we have no ordered crunch time, which some other (most) games company have.
It depends on your profession. When I studied at the University of Skövde we were told that a junior artist would have a starting salary of about 19,000 SEK (approximately 2735 USD) a month, a junior (level) designer/scripter/QA/similar about 20,000 SEK (approximately 2879 USD) a month and a junior programmer about 25,000 SEK (approximately 3599 USD) a month. We seldom talk salaries in Sweden and I don't know how much a game designer (you seldom start at a games company as a games designer if you have no prior experience) should/would earn. 40,000$ is about 277,852 SEK, is that per month? I have never heard of a starting salary that high, especially not in the games industry.
One more thing, if any of you guys are taking a vacation at the iconic American city of Savannah, drop by at the Savannah College of Art and Design. I am sure they would pay the speaking fees in a heart beat.
If they would pay travel costs I would be happy to speak there, for free
By the gods. What do you guys do with all that money? The lowest one is more than five times larger than the highest salary a university graduate can hope to gete where I live.
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You poor Scandinavians, it sounds like a living hell. Ever had to pull and all-nighter at crunch time? Do tempers ever fray?
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I have slept over at the office once the day before a release with the balcony open and got woken up by a family of seaguls raiding inside the office
Generally we try to keep this to a minimum though. This stuff is caused by bad planning and isnt ordered, its just something you do occasionally because you personally want something done (in this case it was a bug discovered late I really did not want to ship with). Last couple of releases there have been very little overtime though because we have gotten more flexible in our scheduling and more experienced doing it too. The day before releasing TFH and AHD I think I left early for some beer
well, your living expenses are on the other hand about 50% higher
Well the living expenses per Capita is higher in Norway but if you go per work hour; Norway is the cheapest country to live in.
I was a postgrad (strictly post-postgrad) before starting work at Paradox (quit halfway through) .. took a paycut from being a student. More relaxed working atmosphere makes up for a lot though (and the bills still get paid, so why complain?)
Just looking back at my time reports, I typically end up *slightly* over the mandated work hours, but that's mostly a matter of 15 minutes here and there. "Worst" days so far were a three hour stint on a Saturday, and working some 2 hours extra on some release days, that accounts for 'serious' overtime on three days in nine months. Nothing like the pre-scheduled Crunch Times scare stories that you get about some companies (not having worked at those, I can't guarantee their accuracy; but rumours of several months of 12h+ workdays abound)
My comments (full disclosure: I work in the game industry):
Crunch Time:
This will very much depend on your company. If you're a tiny company, in a dreaded dependency to a more powerful publisher/investor/etc, you'll see more of it. If you work in certain larger companies, also. If you're an indie developer, you'll practically live it, but it'll be your own choice at least. If you work for a "nice" company, then steps will be made to avoid it.
As podcat says, crunch is the result of failed planning and overzealous outside circumstances. If you/your publisher/your investor allow leeway, then you might not see that much crunch. If you have a proper and experienced Agile team (google agile software development, or scrum) then you're doing the right steps to eliminate crunch.
Proper planning, realistic and flexible goals will eliminate crunch, and there is no reason you should need to put in 12h+ workdays for weeks.
Being/Becoming a Game Designer:
As podcat says, for non-large game companies, you probably won't be hired as a junior game designer. Only the really large publishers/developers even have open junior game designer positions. Typical entry positions are QA, where you can "climb up the ladder" by doing game design-related work, producer-related work, or similar stuff (while still doing a 120% perfect QA job!) and someone will notice and put you on other projects.
If you want to be a game designer, learn something that will help you. You need to understand incentives (this is a must, so learn economics), you need to be able to script/program a bit (learn Python, or some other language you will use during your QA/other work), you need to be able to set up models (learn maths/economics), be able to adapt them quickly to changing game requirements (learn scripting/Excel/theoretical thinking). I've seen game designers applying for a job not knowing how to use Excel, and not understanding basic incentive theory. We laugh at these people*.
Salaries:
The games industry pays below-market wages -- compared to what you would get in the non-games industry. It is what it is, and you need to know it, because it won't change soon. As ForzaA says, great work atmosphere and generally a fun place to be make up for it, for most.
Expect to work for slave wages, especially if you are a Junior Game Designer, Junior/Intermediate QA, and anything related to CRM/support (no matter the seniority). There are thousands of people wanting to enter the games industry, and these are the typical entry positions of people who do not have "proper" game industry skills (programming and/or art). This constant influx of cheap labour keeps wages low, low, low.
Concerning salaries, it depends on the company and your position. Junior positions pay considerably less than Intermediate positions. I have no idea about artist salaries, so I won't speak about them. QA/CRM/support will sometimes get less than 1000€/month -- before taxes. Junior game designers at our company probably 1000€ after taxes. Programmers get significantly more, especially if they're good/have the skills the company needs currently.
Salaries of 40.000€/year+ (before taxes) are definitely intermediate "high-pay" positions (programmers, well-experienced and fantastic producers), or senior other positions. Forget 40k+ if you're in CRM/support.
I hope that helps, and does not intimidate you too much
* Note, there is a difference between game designers and content designers. Game designers do the rules, the models, the game. Content designers provide the text to fill the quests. They are more artists than designers. They do not need to understand incentives (it still helps). They still need to be able to work with Excel.
Crunch Time:
This will very much depend on your company. If you're a tiny company, in a dreaded dependency to a more powerful publisher/investor/etc, you'll see more of it. If you work in certain larger companies, also. If you're an indie developer, you'll practically live it, but it'll be your own choice at least. If you work for a "nice" company, then steps will be made to avoid it.
As podcat says, crunch is the result of failed planning and overzealous outside circumstances. If you/your publisher/your investor allow leeway, then you might not see that much crunch. If you have a proper and experienced Agile team (google agile software development, or scrum) then you're doing the right steps to eliminate crunch.
Proper planning, realistic and flexible goals will eliminate crunch, and there is no reason you should need to put in 12h+ workdays for weeks.
Being/Becoming a Game Designer:
As podcat says, for non-large game companies, you probably won't be hired as a junior game designer. Only the really large publishers/developers even have open junior game designer positions. Typical entry positions are QA, where you can "climb up the ladder" by doing game design-related work, producer-related work, or similar stuff (while still doing a 120% perfect QA job!) and someone will notice and put you on other projects.
If you want to be a game designer, learn something that will help you. You need to understand incentives (this is a must, so learn economics), you need to be able to script/program a bit (learn Python, or some other language you will use during your QA/other work), you need to be able to set up models (learn maths/economics), be able to adapt them quickly to changing game requirements (learn scripting/Excel/theoretical thinking). I've seen game designers applying for a job not knowing how to use Excel, and not understanding basic incentive theory. We laugh at these people*.
Salaries:
The games industry pays below-market wages -- compared to what you would get in the non-games industry. It is what it is, and you need to know it, because it won't change soon. As ForzaA says, great work atmosphere and generally a fun place to be make up for it, for most.
Expect to work for slave wages, especially if you are a Junior Game Designer, Junior/Intermediate QA, and anything related to CRM/support (no matter the seniority). There are thousands of people wanting to enter the games industry, and these are the typical entry positions of people who do not have "proper" game industry skills (programming and/or art). This constant influx of cheap labour keeps wages low, low, low.
Concerning salaries, it depends on the company and your position. Junior positions pay considerably less than Intermediate positions. I have no idea about artist salaries, so I won't speak about them. QA/CRM/support will sometimes get less than 1000€/month -- before taxes. Junior game designers at our company probably 1000€ after taxes. Programmers get significantly more, especially if they're good/have the skills the company needs currently.
Salaries of 40.000€/year+ (before taxes) are definitely intermediate "high-pay" positions (programmers, well-experienced and fantastic producers), or senior other positions. Forget 40k+ if you're in CRM/support.
I hope that helps, and does not intimidate you too much
* Note, there is a difference between game designers and content designers. Game designers do the rules, the models, the game. Content designers provide the text to fill the quests. They are more artists than designers. They do not need to understand incentives (it still helps). They still need to be able to work with Excel.
Everyone who wants a job in the games industry should have a portfolio, no matter if they want to become a programmer, an artist or a designer. I would recommend that you set up a website for your portfolio. Look at the portfolios of other level designers and take inspiration from them. Just google "level designer portfolio" and take a look at their websites. Not all companies require a portfolio, but if they can take a quick look at your website and see what you have worked on you have a clear advantage over those who don't have a online portfolio.
I also would recommend that you try level design in different game engines, such as Unreal Engine, Unity, Hammer and CryEngine, to find which game engine you prefer to work with. I think more game companies use Unreal Engine than Hammer, though.
Very true - on the subject of QA being seen as an entry level/apprentice position. Much to the chagrin of "pure" QA people.
How're we ever going get people to take quality assurance seriously if everyone sees it as training grounds for "real/better" jobs..
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A great and qualified (Senior/Lead) QA is a fantastic asset. Sadly, there are very, very few of them...
We also get paid to go to the university (around 2500-3500 SEK, depening on life circumstances, like 400-600 USD) here.
Still, those salaries are low by Swedish standards. As a high school dropout, I had IIRC something like 24 000 SEK/month working fulltime at a supermarket.
- Jul 23, 2007
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thats high for that though. Also for our american friends, about half of the numbers listed here get eaten by tax.
All jokes aside though, it must be incredible working on something so interesting professionally. I know there's probably a lot of repetition and donkeywork but all the same, I bet it beats what I do, and probably most people.
Not really, it's from the collective agreement but it does include a lot of late nights and weekends though. Income taxes are more like a third, but of course there's VAT and lots of other stuff so about half all in all. I had around 16k SEK after (income) taxes.
I'd much rather work for a lower salary doing something fun and interesting though, and working at the supermarket my body ached every day when I came home from work. Luckily, we have free education so I'll have a much nicer job in a couple of years
Do most of you guys have university educations though or are there many who just have self-learned skills?
@ University Education: I have a bachelors in Mechanical Engineering, but it hasn't helped me much in securing work. However, my country (Ireland) is a dysfunctional mess.
@ Crunch Time: I think Crunch Time besides the occasional <1 week long period is poor practice. In University I've experienced times where I've been overworked, and the end result is that you make more mistakes and make bad decisions, and ultimately productivity goes down. I also could see such persistent use of crunch time causing company morale to take a nose dive, and drive up turnover of employees. In a skilled occupation like game development that's bad news, as every replaced employee is time wasted on bringing the new employee up to speed.
I think Paradox has the right idea. Crunch time has it's place (Shit happens...), but it should be reserved for emergencies, and there shouldn't be plans in advance to use it. As I see it, Crunch time is a bit like an all nighter. It means you'll get your work in on time, but that work is likely to be lower quality(due to the mental fatigue under which you were working), and the day afterwards you'll be completely wrecked and unable to do anything.
Generally, I think things should be done using the principles of "Lean" (hey I studied Mechanical Engineering) which means that you should avoid making mistakes in the first place, rather then correcting them after the fact. Persistent crunch time is ultimately inneffective, as while you might have more code being produced, a lot more effort is going to have to be expended on squashing bugs.
@ Crunch Time: I think Crunch Time besides the occasional <1 week long period is poor practice. In University I've experienced times where I've been overworked, and the end result is that you make more mistakes and make bad decisions, and ultimately productivity goes down. I also could see such persistent use of crunch time causing company morale to take a nose dive, and drive up turnover of employees. In a skilled occupation like game development that's bad news, as every replaced employee is time wasted on bringing the new employee up to speed.
I think Paradox has the right idea. Crunch time has it's place (Shit happens...), but it should be reserved for emergencies, and there shouldn't be plans in advance to use it. As I see it, Crunch time is a bit like an all nighter. It means you'll get your work in on time, but that work is likely to be lower quality(due to the mental fatigue under which you were working), and the day afterwards you'll be completely wrecked and unable to do anything.
Generally, I think things should be done using the principles of "Lean" (hey I studied Mechanical Engineering) which means that you should avoid making mistakes in the first place, rather then correcting them after the fact. Persistent crunch time is ultimately inneffective, as while you might have more code being produced, a lot more effort is going to have to be expended on squashing bugs.