[MOD IDEA] Ancient Greece: Peloponnesian War

[unmerged(445219)]

Naval and Land dominance, client states, coalitions and a struggle for dominance spanning across seas. Watching the livestream, this game seems to be a perfect fit for a Peloponnesian War mod. You have the two leagues going head to head. The colonies in Sicily, Anatolia, the Bosphorus all able to remain neutral or pick a winning side. Outside kingdoms such as Persia and Macedonia can get involved, giving aid to the side which it wishes to win, or propping up the losing side to be able to dominate the area for itself.

The map would be something like this:

 

[yourworstnightm]

Interesting idea, especially now when Republics will become playable, but you should probably post this in the MoD forum.

 

[liamgamer55]

I agree it'd be a great time frame, but I actually think that victoria 2 suits the ancient greek era much more than crusader kings 2. Wars back then are suited by a focus on politics, the representation of the needs of different classes and even ideology suit the period better than what crusader kings 2 does best (personal relations based on loose or rigid legal structures).

What part of ck2 represents the way different greek states disliked each other based on what ideology their politics wise(autocratic vs aristocratic for example)? What part represents the changes in government based on the differencing wills and political opinions of the various classes? How are you going to represent a slave revolt properly in ck2? A rebel stack?

It'd be a lot of work, and if you're going to do it then you should choose based on which major^* paradox game engine (vichy 2, hoi3, ck2 or eu3) you want to do it on after you've chosen the era, not before.

^* word added to exclude eu:rome and sengoku...

 

[justin6477]

Eh, I have to agree with liamgamer55 that Victoria (or even EU) would suit the style of the conflict better. MotE might even be a better platform to portray this conflict depending on how much of the crazy stuff Napoleon did is represented in the game.

CK2 doesn't reflect naval attrition, or naval battles. And without a naval aspect to the conflict, you can't really represent Athen's ability to survive against Sparta.

 

[liamgamer55]

Eu3 is the generic grand strategy game basically, it does any era a fair amount of justic, but if any case you think ck2 or victoria 2 would be better I'd probably go for either one. One of the other reasons the victoria 2 engine is great is because of the great powers feature (and the way the AI uses it). To have every city be a part of somewhere from 1 to 9 factions (sparta, athens, persia and independent maybe?) suits ancient greece extremely well.

CK2 doesn't reflect naval attrition, or naval battles. And without a naval aspect to the conflict, you can't really represent Athen's ability to survive against Sparta.

You could... by making "naval power" be a modifier and have it give you money and be useful in diplomacy or something... but that's just gameplay abstraction to the point of absurdity... hence why victoria 2 is better.

 

[Nuril]

but I actually think that victoria 2 suits the ancient greek era much more than crusader kings 2.

Even if that were to prove true.. it's not like that's ever stopped a modding project before.

What part of ck2 represents the way different greek states disliked each other based on what ideology their politics wise(autocratic vs aristocratic for example)? What part represents the changes in government based on the differencing wills and political opinions of the various classes? How are you going to represent a slave revolt properly in ck2? A rebel stack?

Could probably just substitute Religion for various factions within the state, given how Ethnic Polytheistic religions don't really mind eachother, generally speaking.

 

[liamgamer55]

Even if that were to prove true.. it's not like that's ever stopped a modding project before.

Anyone can mod anything with enough motivation, but if the OP wants to
A. Attract other modders to help out
or
B. Be motivated to work on it for more than 6 months
He/his team is going to need to feel like they're doing the era the best justice they can, and having the "maybe I should've just done it on victoria 2" hanging over there head is going to be bad in the long run. Especially if there aren't any compelling arguments for why ck2 would suit the era better.

Could probably just substitute Religion for various factions within the state, given how Ethnic Polytheistic religions don't really mind eachother, generally speaking.

Where each province can only have have one "faction" be dominant and nothing even remotely representing any significant minorities (e.g. warriors want one thing, merchants want another). You could do it the ck2 way of representing minorities by making random provinces be random religions arbitrarily but that really wouldn't work in ancient Greece where each city may be quite different politically.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Eh, I have to agree with liamgamer55 that Victoria (or even EU) would suit the style of the conflict better. MotE might even be a better platform to portray this conflict depending on how much of the crazy stuff Napoleon did is represented in the game.

CK2 doesn't reflect naval attrition, or naval battles. And without a naval aspect to the conflict, you can't really represent Athen's ability to survive against Sparta.

I am more for the Ancient Persian/ Greek/ Macedonian era need it's own game to get the balance right. Please make one Paradox.

 

[liamgamer55]

I am more for the Ancient Persian/ Greek/ Macedonian era need it's own game to get the balance right. Please make one Paradox.

Balance can very easily be changed by modders... all that is in question is whether new features are needed that aren't present in for example Victoria 2. The only thing I can think of is leader stats would be nice but that's not that important for the ancient greek era... plus it can be easily abstracted. You can have flags that give your leader 5 different stats from 1/10 (meaning 50 different graphical icons) which affect the game in any way you want fairly easily.

What would an ancient greek game need that Victoria 2 doesn't have that can't easily be abstracted by stats+flags+events? Leader stats definitely can be.

 

[caesarian]

I dont see why people have to say 'This other game would fit the era better' Well maybe some people dont want to play/buy those other games. It's a mod idea for CK2. It just irks me when someone wants to be all nay-sayer about ideas.

 

[liamgamer55]

I dont see why people have to say 'This other game would fit the era better' Well maybe some people dont want to play/buy those other games. It's a mod idea for CK2. It just irks me when someone wants to be all nay-sayer about ideas.

Because he's talking about a major conversion and put simply the price of Victoria 2 is a lot lower than the price in man hours of making a major mod, so which paradox game it's for is somewhat irrelevant. Do you think OP is going to care which paradox game it's for after he's spent 15 hours on this mod? How about 100? If the OP says "no it's absolutely going to be for ck2" then sure I'll give up and move on, but until then I'd strongly advice he for example tries out the victoria 2 demo to get a bit of an idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Balance can very easily be changed by modders... all that is in question is whether new features are needed that aren't present in for example Victoria 2. The only thing I can think of is leader stats would be nice but that's not that important for the ancient greek era... plus it can be easily abstracted. You can have flags that give your leader 5 different stats from 1/10 (meaning 50 different graphical icons) which affect the game in any way you want fairly easily.

I meant the balance between characters and polity. Basically you should play as a polity, but characters still being important (little bit like Rome, but much more in dept). Family alliances was still important within the polities whether monarchies, aristocracies, democracies or tyrannies. I also like the holdings within province, I think it would suit well a Ancient Greek game to have minor cities within a province that pay taxes to the dominant city, but also can cause a lot of trouble.

Anyway, I quite enjoy the Roman mod for CK 2 and a Greek mod would be nice, but I still hope Paradox do a game for this era at some point.

 

[Arko]

you might check this game

 

[caesarian]

Because he's talking about a major conversion and put simply the price of Victoria 2 is a lot lower than the price in man hours of making a major mod, so which paradox game it's for is somewhat irrelevant. Do you think OP is going to care which paradox game it's for after he's spent 15 hours on this mod? How about 100? If the OP says "no it's absolutely going to be for ck2" then sure I'll give up and move on, but until then I'd strongly advice he for example tries out the victoria 2 demo to get a bit of an idea of what I'm talking about.

I know what you're saying about how much time someone would have to put in for it, but the same would be true for a mod a victoria as well. Unless youve got a suggestion for a mod already made or a game that was made meeting his idea then posts like yours are extremely unhelpful, and may deter some modder who may just take up the idea.

 

[rickinator9]

you might check this game

I have it, but it focuses a lot more on Macedonia than on Athens and Sparta. Not to mention that the AI is awefully harrassy

I have to say I have been playing with a Diadochi mod idea for a while. This is the result:

The Satraps and the Strategos' are still independent, as I haven't made Babylon yet(the place where the kings were kept until they went to Macedon).

 

[liamgamer55]

I know what you're saying about how much time someone would have to put in for it, but the same would be true for a mod a victoria as well. Unless youve got a suggestion for a mod already made or a game that was made meeting his idea then posts like yours are extremely unhelpful, and may deter some modder who may just take up the idea.

Starting a project that is likely to fail due to their being an obviously better game for the job is also "extremely unhelpful". Would you prefer he and possibly his team burnt out sooner or later? How many big mods for games have you seen succeed or fail? Better advice may perhaps be, start on something a bit smaller, get to know each paradox game then if you're still sure this era and that ck2 is the right game for it in a couple of months time (or 20 hours of playing around with the files, whichever one comes sooner) then begin. If not... then learning the ck2 engine in the mean time by making smaller mods is one smaller step to take before making a bigger one.

I'd rather hope you know what you're actually talking about before accusing me of being "extremely unhelpful" thankyou very much.

 

[Jon F. Zeigler]

I will admit: it's occurred to me to use the CKII engine for ancient Greece . . . but the period I thought of was actually the late Bronze Age. WIth lots of fantastic elements so we would end up with a grand-strategic game covering the Greek heroic legends.

 

[liamgamer55]

I will admit: it's occurred to me to use the CKII engine for ancient Greece . . . but the period I thought of was actually the late Bronze Age. WIth lots of fantastic elements so we would end up with a grand-strategic game covering the Greek heroic legends.

If it's a more people focused mod then ck2 is probably better for your mod IMO. Nothing is stopping very similar settings playing out very differently. If ck2 was only England it'd play totally differently to only Russia for instance.

 

[Darkgamma]

This thread makes me want a Paradox game set in Ancient Egypt.

 

[liamgamer55]

This thread makes me want a Paradox game set in Ancient Egypt.

What's stopping you modding one for either ck2 or victoria 2 I would love to see one made, but I also hate leading mod teams.