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The 2nd Unofficial Official Warlock Tournament - Discussion thread.

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fcm13 said:
I think what 2coats means is that you can't start to play with the elven race or with the perks he listed. If you conquer a elven town, you can build bow masters, and if you find a koalt village during the game you can build warlocks. But remmember, you would need to conquer a level 5 city, what is not so easy or wait a long time for a level 1 city to grow.
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Um...
you realize... that iril bows upgrading to bowmasters just needs the upgrade cost only, and can be done as long as you have a training ground (in any city).

Well either way fcm13, what we're saying is iril bowmasters are way too good with that stun ability, basically locking down any unit you desire for 2 turns.
 
Efyian said:
Um...
you realize... that iril bows upgrading to bowmasters just needs the upgrade cost only, and can be done as long as you have a training ground (in any city).

Well either way fcm13, what we're saying is iril bowmasters are way too good with that stun ability, basically locking down any unit you desire for 2 turns.
Click to expand...

I know they are way too good, but you need to conquer a elven city to get them. What I mean is that no one is having an unfair starting advantage if they are allowed.
 
Modjo said:
Hi guys,
I prefer 5a as well, but what of elven followers, do we really need to ban this perk?
Modjo
Click to expand...

I think the ban is on all starting units, so that you actually have to be careful on balancing troops vs settlers at the start of the game :)
I mean, let's be honest, elven followers really is one of the best starting perks. Its an incredibly high damage ranged unit with 5 base movement that has forester ability (or you can move 4, cast elven speed and heal up, and then move another 7 the following turn).

Starting with it also lets you easily clear out the lairs in your starting area, which then prevents random monsters from spawning to attack your moving settlers. And it makes it very easy to capture neutral independents right at the start (you can take 1 with the starting units by turn 3-4 if you start with elven followers).


EDIT:
Just an interesting map suggestion.
A supercontinent flat map is actually arguably more balanced than Great Land.

Because the water is only on the surrounding edges of the map, you won't get a ridiculous scenario where you got a lake and mountain blocking your capital almost completely in :)
 
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Hi,
perhaps we could use the premade wizards from the game? Some of them are a bit weak but none are overcheated i think. that could be an option for those who like god perks anyway.
Modjo
 
I do think that there needs to be significant water otherwise it deprives players of naval units which are a part of the game. I do realize though that when separate by only water two players can't win since the attacker will always have a huge disadvantage.

I say Supercontinent since it allows enough water to bother with naval units, but still so much land that usually players are connected by land more than separated by ocean.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
Modjo said:
Hi,
perhaps we could use the premade wizards from the game? Some of them are a bit weak but none are overcheated i think. that could be an option for those who like god perks anyway.
Modjo
Click to expand...

Hmm...
Regarding premade wizards, following ones are front loaded for early game:
Miralbus: Summon Imps + Mana Vault
Dragon Queen: Elven Followers

While following two give access to problematic units, early:
Malinalxochi: Koatl Village
Aberron: using Elves
 
TheVaultDweller said:
I do think that there needs to be significant water otherwise it deprives players of naval units which are a part of the game. I do realize though that when separate by only water two players can't win since the attacker will always have a huge disadvantage.

I say Supercontinent since it allows enough water to bother with naval units, but still so much land that usually players are connected by land more than separated by ocean.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
Click to expand...

I agree. Small map would be better, but if we are using medium map, supercontinent is a better option than great land.

I also think that 2coats's 5a perks is better than using premade wizards. Some premade wizards use OP perks.
 
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he's already updated it to small flat great land world :)
The question now is whether to:

a) small flat great land (most common 1v1 settings)
b) small flat supercontinent (I'm finding it more balanced than great land actually)
c) medium flat supercontinent (Way too big)
d) medium cylindrical supercontinent (Tested in SP. I was 8 tiles away from AI XD)

player1 fanatic said:
At least he does not start with Mana Vault. :D
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True, but you don't need mana vault when the spell is 13 mana to cast :D
Just build a mana trap so you have 8mana/turn and you're golden! lol.
 
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Efyian said:
he's already updated it to small flat great land world :)
The question now is whether to:

a) small flat great land (most common 1v1 settings)
b) small flat supercontinent (I'm finding it more balanced than great land actually)
c) medium flat supercontinent (Way too big)
d) medium cylindrical supercontinent (Never tried. Can't say how the spawn points for players is like or anything.)


You don't need mana vault when the spell is 13 mana to summon. Just build a mana trap so you have 8mana/turn and you're golden! lol.
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I didn't see the update. If the map is small, all the other settings are ok. Supercontinent or great land are both fine for me.
 
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The way this thread is going is ridiculous.....because of the nerfs you all want to apply it seems the only option will be to take humans and hope for a good starting position. I thought this game had something to do with magic but you're not allowed to to start with mana??????? That's too much!
The conditions already state that you must tell your opponent b4 the start what perks you would like so it's really up to them what they decide to do, no? If you know they're taking favour of Grumgog and mana vault and you decide to take some other perks then all the more fool you....... as long as starting perks are declared b4 the match then anything should be ok.........
Every race has their own benefits that can be countered after all......
 
osserpete said:
The way this thread is going is ridiculous.....because of the nerfs you all want to apply it seems the only option will be to take humans and hope for a good starting position. I thought this game had something to do with magic but you're not allowed to to start with mana??????? That's too much!
The conditions already state that you must tell your opponent b4 the start what perks you would like so it's really up to them what they decide to do, no? If you know they're taking favour of Grumgog and mana vault and you decide to take some other perks then all the more fool you....... as long as starting perks are declared b4 the match then anything should be ok.........
Every race has their own benefits that can be countered after all......
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Although I agree with the sentiments of your post, if you were allowed any perk/race then there are some players here that will beat quite a few us within 30 turns or less! They maybe some that say we are bad players, but combined with optimum perks and other exploits in the engine that if you don't know about, you will stand no chance if you don't play that way. A player using min/max rush approach, will have a large army that will include some very high level units, temple units etc. While if you do not use this approach, you will be trying to fend this off with tier 1 units and maybe a caster or two. These means that if you don't want a min/max rush approach tournament with only one strategy to win, you gonna need some house rules :)
 
osserpete:
Most people in MP already play with the house rule of 'no favour abilities allowed' because they're too good.
No, you should not be able to summon a free unit every turn, which makes it completely unnecessary to train units at the start of the game since your summons will clear everything for you.
And if you play it properly and aggressively, you can use your summons to stop the other player from settling by summoning rats/bears beside their settlers and killing them off.

These rules don't eliminate the use of spells at all, merely prevents the casting of spells/summons in the early games to instantly clear lairs.
By turn 10 or so, you should have a minimum of 50 mana (generally you'd have gotten some mana from lairs too, so more like 130-140) and 1-2 spells researched for casting.

The previous tournament had similar rules. If you don't like it, simply don't participate. :)

If anything, with these rules, it's more balanced between the factions than without.
- Undead can mass mercenaries of all types due to food not affecting them, along with some skeletons for anti-missile. However, to take advantage of you, you give up the ability to grow non-undead neutral cities your capture. Nonetheless, it's often decisive in a 1v1.
- Humans will be able to get a bigger army out early due to hunters, but can't support mercenaries except halberds properly because of very low food production.
- Monsters have the +5food pub and fishing village to be able to support some mercenaries as well as a big army.

If you think it's not balanced, I'd be happy to take you on with undead or monsters with these rules :) The mercenaries (halberds, minotaurs, stubborn knights) very powerful advanced units for low cost. Fortify 1 on a city, and it's basically invulnerable to attack until turn 30 or so. That's the case even if you attack with a swarm of silver weaponry hunters.

Without these rules, the only faction anyone should play is undead, because they got the best scouts in bats, the ability to generate high amounts of mana, and can ignore food production entirely (which makes supporting tons of rats, bears, and mercenaries easy).

GaryW:
Sadly, it is still very possible to max/min these settings :)
 
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Efyian said:
osserpete:
Most people in MP already play with the house rule of 'no favour abilities allowed' because they're too good.
No, you should not be able to summon a free unit every turn, which makes it completely unnecessary to train units at the start of the game since your summons will clear everything for you.
Click to expand...

So why in the last tournament were players allowed to have "Favour of Dauros" for example? Their shitty easily learned spell can be spammed on my hard earned vampires for no mana, but my early game mana sucking undead troops aren't allowed to start with a little mana in reserve to nix their (insert 75% of units) death resistant scouts with a nice little fireball (if i'm even lucky enough to find the spell that early!).....:excl:
Look, my point is/was that everyone has their own play style and will therefore think x vs y is OP or vice versa, depending on how it affects them. So if you're going to nerf stuff, to be fair, why not nerf everything? No starting perks what so ever would probably be the fairest way.........no?
 
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