Venice Reloaded - a 1453 Venice DW 5.2 AAR

[Ricardo Rolo]

Hum, this war was almost a tie: you won but had not defeated Austria and Austria, in spite of nominally victorious, could not hurt you as much they wanted to. More, with the forceful exit of HRE due to the Milan mission, things will be even more problematic. Now if you find Austria forces diverted elsewhere, like in those interminable crusades vs the Ottomans, things can lighten up, though

 

[Range]

To leave the Holy Roman Empire, or not...I wouldn't blame you if you went for it...

I see at the end of the war...despite your war capacity being at 100% versus Austria's 74%, your reserves were badly depleted. With what you got for the war...you did fine.

What you need is for Austria to go to war with someone else...then, if the cease fire ends...when their forces are depleted you attack Austria.

Congrats.

 

[diegoami]

Hum, this war was almost a tie: you won but had not defeated Austria and Austria, in spite of nominally victorious, could not hurt you as much they wanted to. More, with the forceful exit of HRE due to the Milan mission, things will be even more problematic. Now if you find Austria forces diverted elsewhere, like in those interminable crusades vs the Ottomans, things can lighten up, though

Yeah - assuming I don't get involved as Venice myself in those crusades, the Ottomans have a scary fleet in this scenario, not to mention the other Muslim nations. At least there won't likely be a "Castillian Africa" though.

To leave the Holy Roman Empire, or not...I wouldn't blame you if you went for it...

I see at the end of the war...despite your war capacity being at 100% versus Austria's 74%, your reserves were badly depleted. With what you got for the war...you did fine.

What you need is for Austria to go to war with someone else...then, if the cease fire ends...when their forces are depleted you attack Austria.

Congrats.

I don't even know exactly what that "War capacity" means...
It seems like Austria's forces never deplete, though. We'll see.

 

[Range]

The best War capacity explanation was supplied by dharper June 2008. Whether it still holds true I couldn't begin to guess.

dharper stated: Mostly it's your army, plus your allies armies, versus the enemy army, plus their allies armies. If you have 10,000 troops and your enemy has 100,000, your war capacity is likely to be 10%.

In addition there is a small weight on provinces controlled by the enemy, especially your capital.

Manpower, war exhaustion, generals, stability, revolt risk, treasury and navy do not seem to matter much if at all.

 

[TonyJoe]

Great job but I'm sure it was painful to let Austria off the hook.

And you're right, manpower is really tough in 5.2. I understand why they made it more difficult to restore manpower but in my opinion the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

 

[Balakov10]

I have a solution. Why don't you promote cultural unity on the cored province and then you release milan without that province?

 

[diegoami]

The best War capacity explanation was supplied by dharper June 2008. Whether it still holds true I couldn't begin to guess.

dharper stated: Mostly it's your army, plus your allies armies, versus the enemy army, plus their allies armies. If you have 10,000 troops and your enemy has 100,000, your war capacity is likely to be 10%.

In addition there is a small weight on provinces controlled by the enemy, especially your capital.

Manpower, war exhaustion, generals, stability, revolt risk, treasury and navy do not seem to matter much if at all.

That makes sense. Thank you.
I actually had my divisions to force limit, too bad they were all depleted.

Great job but I'm sure it was painful to let Austria off the hook.

And you're right, manpower is really tough in 5.2. I understand why they made it more difficult to restore manpower but in my opinion the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

Thank you. Personally I think it is in a step in the right direction, it should make blobbing harder.
The way it is now, though, probably even Prawnstar wouldn't manage a world conquest (what did I just say...).

I have a solution. Why don't you promote cultural unity on the cored province and then you release milan without that province?

That would work, but I cannot release vassals --> House Rule. That's because I consider it an overpowered way to reduce infamy, and I used it my last Venice game. But most important of all, the AI never does it, so as a human player I don't want to do it either.

 

[diegoami]

1472-1486 : Milan, Bosnia - and Burgundy

There came a period of peace for Venice, motivated by the necessity to recover manpower. In May 1472, after getting at last a doge having high diplomatic skills, we were able to annex Milan after leaving the HRE.

Note : it is necessary to leave the HRE BEFORE diploannexing a country containing uncored provinces, otherwise the uncored provinces go back to their previous owner. I allowed myself a reload since I didn't know of this mechanic.

Of the four Milan provinces, two (Lombardia and Cremona) became immediately a core, but at a price : the "Integrating New Core" modifier, which lasts ten year. It is a novelty in 5.2.
But the buildings disappear nonetheless.

The next mission Venice got was to annex Bosnia - a mission we would need ten years to fulfill. Ten more years we would use to recover manpower and to build in the new provinces, that of course lost all of their improvements. We would have some use for the magistrates, at last.

In 1475, we got a core on Trento, Austria. Venice would be ashamed if it wouldn't be able to get it by 1525.

Regrettably, just as we had finished replenishing our armies and we were beginning to accumulate manpower, in 1478 Bohemia called us to arms. They had started the subjugation of Saxony (Leipzig-Meissen) and needed our help. For us and our vassals, it meant mostly to fight against Burgundy.

Some of our vassals (Savoy, Ferrara, Styria) had sent troops to Burgundy and we followed them to support them. We did not want them to get slaughtered and of course, when we are in a war - we fight.

Switzerland was neutral in this war, but it was convenient that we had military access there, while Burgundy didn't. Both Venice and Burgundy had military access to France, though.

France and Austria were fighting a war over the excommunication of Bar - which of course was very convenient. It is a pity France had no way to reach the Austrian mainland.

This was the situation in May 1480.

It seemed that one of our vassals (Tuscany) wasn't able to reach Burgundy because of path-finding problems - they should have gone through Romagna but it seemed they thought the only way was through Modena, which was not under our influence.

Bohemia, anyway, did not seem to need any help on their front.

We were blockading Burgundy, while the Pope had found a way to invade their territory from the North.

One year had passed. The Pope's expedition in Northern Burgundy had failed, but we were still blockading Burgundy. We had relieved Avignon and we were occupying most of Southern Burgundy.

Meanwhile Bohemia had finalized and had managed to vassalize both Saxony and Thüringen - and made them declare war on their former allies. To thank the Doge for Venice's efforts, the king of Bohemia sent him a full load of the best Bohemian beer.

The war went into the year 1482. Burgundy sent reenforcements to the south and Venice made a strategic retreat...

By December 1482, profiting of this retreat, Burgundy managed to retake the occupied provinces, but right after that Venice's troops invaded South Burgundy again. It seemed that the war could go on forever. Venice would have liked to pull out, but you don't leave allies in time of need. At least Bohemia was sending war subsidies.

At last, in October 1484, Bohemia made peace with Burgundy and Novgorod and got some reparations.

And Venice was able to diplo-annex Bosnia, but got a very dangerous direct border with the Ottoman Empire. Here too we immediately got cores on both the Bosnian provinces along with the "Integrating New Core" modifier.

Guess what, the next mission was another "incorporate mission" : Ragusa. Another ten year of waiting. And guess again, we have to recover manpower after a war only our ally Bohemia profited from. Hey, these are the rules.

But let's try something different : settlement policy, in Dalmatia and Hum, to convert them to Lombard. So that we have some use for those colonists. Whether it is a good idea remains to be seen.

It is time to have a look at the state of the world - and the nation. Europe in 1489 seems to be a dangerous place, as France, Algiers and the Ottomans Empire are growing strong. England is exploring and colonizing. The weirdest thing IMHO is Cyprus annexing Achea and Athens.

America has been discovered for a while - as England, Castille and Portugal have all QfTNW...

When it comes to income, Venice is up there with the big guys.

But I have a feeling that the Venice trade league is somewhat subpar. We have been worrying more about wars than commerce. Not good.

For a mercantilist country, we are doing pretty good when it comes to trade...

We are not shy of sending our merchants to the four corners of Europe, and that is encouraged by our national Ideas, "Merchant Adventures" and "Shrewd Commerce Practices"

 

[vasziljevics]

just wtf has happened in Iberia?

I hope Venice will be awarded somehow for being a such noble ally.

 

[Range]

Allies can be a blessing as well as a curse. If you have the right kind they will keep the heat off long enough for certain countries to grow up so they can take care of themselves. Then, again if you have plans on using their muscle...you have to get them into a war to help you make some gains...before they start a war and use up all your reserves.

 

[diegoami]

Thank for your feedback, vasziljevics and Range.

I suppose I have bigger manpower problems than my allies.

I am still not sure how to deal with allies. I have a house rule to always answer call to arms immediately rather than declare war separately (as the AI always does) and support allies fully (as the AI does) but I should probably allow myself to opt out of a war, if I feel my allies can win on their own - the AI does make separate peaces.

I think I will write a post about the "Iberian wars" .

 

[diegoami]

The XVth century French-Iberian wars

Venice is the focus of our story, but we cannot ignore the events in the other parts of Europe, that will inevitably sooner or later affect our glorious republic. This is a short chronicle of the French-Iberian wars between 1456 and 1474.

In the Iberian Peninsula, in 1453, there were the states of Castille, Aragon, Portugal, Granada and Navarra. One of the biggest disgrace in this area of the world was the rivalry between the kingdoms of Aragon and Castille. To get rid of his bigger brother, Aragon would do anything. He allied with France and in 1456 declared war on Castille, without casus belli. The armies of France descended into the Peninsula.

French and allies went from victory to victory. The Castillian army for some reason was no match.

Soon there was no Castillian army and Castillia could be occupied.

As a result of this war, Aragon, as a war leader, gained two Castillian provinces in 1459. And Galicia became independent.

After this disastrous war, Castille went looking for allies. It allied with England and Portugal. That was a fateful decision, as it ended up being involved in another war, between France and England. France, in fact, started the reconquest of Calais in 1470. Fighting against Aragon, France, Burgundy and Naples at the same time was too much for the kingdom.

French, Burgundian and Aragon troops invaded Castillia and had routed all of their troops by 1472, as we could reconstruct using the records in the Castillian archive about the war, which we regrettably could not witness personally.

In 1472, Castille and Portugal were at the mercy of their enemies.

In 1474, France made a separate peace with Portugal and Spain and gained three provinces in Iberia. Aragon didn't fear Castille any longer, but could they trust France ?

 

[Range]

Wow...inviting France to dinner at your table...ouch. Great post!

 

[Rendap]

Sign me up Scotty - Only just noticed this one...

 

[Ricardo Rolo]

Someone should had sent Aragon a copy of Il Principe ... the chapter about what happens to those that bring powerful outsiders to their playground would be of use to them , I reckon Most likely this will backfire horribly against everyone in the Peninsula ( except the French, that is ), including OFC Aragon

 

[WeAreAwful]

Just caught up. Back when you DoW'd Styria- You can sphere nations if they are in another nation's sphere. It removes them from the other sphere. I believe this only works if you have higher prestige than the other nation. Worth noting, it sometimes helps you avoid fighting a monster to vassalize a minor. However, sometimes the monster in question immediately guarantees the minor

 

[unmerged(58610)]

That's one decimated Castille. Certainly a mistake to bring France into the picture. They will be a pain pretty soon now that you have annexed Milan. The Ottomans could be coming your way too. Then there are the ever peace-loving Austrians who also want Styria.

 

[diegoami]

Hi everybody, thank you for the feedback

@Range : Thank you!

@Rendap : Thank you and welcome!

@Ricardo Rolo: Interesting, that's one part of "Il Principe" I didn't know about. It's a good thing in this timeline we have French-Iberian wars and not French-Italian ones. so far...

@WeAreAwful : Thank you for the tips, I always assumed you can't sphere countries who are already sphered...

@Chief Ragusa : Hi and thank you for the feedback! Life for Venice is not going to be boring...

 

[diegoami]

1491-1499 : New wars, new allies

While Venice was recovering manpower and waiting for the year when the mission could be fulfilled (incorporate Ragusa), France had started the second conquest of Calais. This turned out to be just an excuse to invade Iberia again, and Iberian historians call this war the 3rd French-Iberian war.

By the year 1491, France had signed a peace with Castille, getting other provinces in Iberia. Castille was out of the war.

But even if England was not able to defend their provinces in France, it brought the war to Italy. Our ally Naples had been invaded by English troops, and they could not call us to arms since they were not the war leader. Not that we would want to get involved. English troops were also marauding in Sicily and Sardinia.

At the same time, Austrian troops had invaded Croatia. That was happening inside of another Europen war, the war of Swedish Aggression against Norway, where our ally Bohemia was fighting. They could not call us to arms either, because the war leader was Norway. Not that we would even want to get involved...
Bavaria was fighting against Bohemia in a separate war. In this war, yes, we got called to arms and became the war leader.

It was sad for our Central Europe ally, who had been invaded by Austria, Hungary, Poland, Brandenburg and the Palatinate. They would certainly lose, and that would make Austria a more dangerous opponent.

Bohemia accepted an humiliating peace, while we invaded Bavaria after they had just annexed Augsburg. Probably the Theocracy was their target when they started the war.

By the year 1493, peace had come back to most of Europe and a new balance of power had been established.

France had received several Iberian provinces, while England had made Aragon release Sicily and got three provinces from Naples - which obviously wasn't something Venice could be happy about.

Bohemia had to release Silesia and give up both of their vassals Thuringia and Saxony. We had made Bavaria release Augsburg again.

The consolidation in the Muslim world continued. The Ottomans had inherited Morocco and now Tripoli was Algiers' vassal.

Venice kept on pursuing her goals and in 1495, Ragusa could be incorporated into the realm. We got another incorporation mission - this time was the two-province minor Ferrara.

But there was another issue Venice had to think about - allies. Naples and Bohemia were forced to annul their treaties, and there was only Switzerland left. Other nations would refuse to ally with Venice because the Merchant Republic was allied with her vassals. Therefore, we unallied them to free slots for a fresh alliance, as our vassals could be re-allied anytime.

This operation took us some years. Bohemia could be won back as an ally, and as a third ally we picked a country which had a great potential : Aragon. That meant also a second-degree alliance with France.

By 1499, the diplomatic switch had happened, and we had re-allied with our vassals as well.

Perhaps unspectacularly, Venice was growing into an economic superpower. In fact, in 1499 Venice had the second biggest income in the world. But it was obvious that the Ottomans were a very serious threat.

It was also clear that a big part of Venice's success derived from the ability to trade in the Ottoman Centers of Trade of Alexandria and Thrace. Venice merchants were strong also in Lisboa, Antwerpen and of course in Venice, one of the biggest COTs in Europe.

Trade was by far Venice's greatest source of income - a whopping 45% of the total income.

This was helped by Venice's National Ideas and Sliders. But since you can't have everything, that meant Venice would be always struggling militarily, as Military Drill could not be taken as a NI because of a house rule.

As we aren't doing anything about culture, the advisors were the ones we could find on the market - and so far we had been fairly lucky. And we had been blessed with a great doge.

Therefore, as the new century was about to begin, we had many reasons to feel optimistic about the future.

 

[unmerged(58610)]

I think Casanova as Doge ought to improve your manpower. Looking at your advisors, I believe Venice has discovered the secret of eternal life and none of them are Venetian. Portugal looks to be one war from destruction and Castille two and then Aragon will have to fight France.

That's one scary Ottoman empire. Algiers, too looks more powerful. The two ought to clash. The Ottomans are doing their thing on the Mamluks. So much of Vebetian wealth is tied up in CoTs the Ottomans control that a war would serioulsy cost Venice. The Ottomans would suffer , too, but not as much as Venice. For the Ottomans ,you need a strong Austria-Hungary and a unified Poland-Lithuania.

However, Venice has a core on an Austrian province and you try to claim all your cores. With the manpower Venice has available, compared with Austria and that's not close to an even fight -in Austria's favour. Venice does have lots of vassals. The states in her vicinity not controlled by Venice are Croatia, Siena, Moden, Genoa, Naples and Sicily. There are three provinces belonging to England and both the English army and navy make getting those provinces back, rather daunting. Genoa has a CoT and it should belong to Venice. The mission to incorporate Ferrara is a nice one, but you can't do anything about it for 10 years. Cancelling the mission should therefore be possible as it is not achievable in the next 5 years. Maybe you'll get a Conquest on Genoa.