Aurora III (v 6.21) - The Final Frontier - Hosted by Blue Emu

[blue emu]

I don't think building fixed defenses at this stage of the game is worth the effort. We should instead be investing in the resources necessary to develop flexible fleet units capable of dealing with more than one event scenario. We cannot know where all jump points enter the system, so wasting resources on fixed locations in space...rather than fixed locations like bases, is too restrictive, IMO.

If we want to build fixed defenses, they should be priorities at strategic bases, rather than strategic points. If the point is strategic enough, we should build a base nearby.

We won't be deploying any Jump-Point fortresses until we've located the jump points, naturally. But once located, the jump points are very strategic locations indeed. Not only do they represent bottle-necks through which the great majority of our potential enemies must pass in order to reach us, there is also jump-shock to be considered. Ships are almost helpless for anywhere from two to five minutes after a jump... it's the ideal time to smash them at short range, while they can't even target you in return. Naturally, in order to smash them "at short range", you need to be deployed practically on top of the jump point BEFORE the enemy comes through. That's where the towed fortresses come in... it would be wasteful to use our mobile fleet in this role.

 

[blue emu]

We are making excellent progress on our Grav-scouts. Our military shipyards have reached a suitable size to build them. We have researched and pre-built the required Gravitational Anomaly Sensors. We have researched, prototyped and pre-built the necessary military NP engines. We have researched two of the four required Jump Drive theoretical techs, and are now researching the other two (simultaneously)... both are due to finish in five months. Then we will need to design, research, prototype and pre-build the required Jump Engine application, since a ship whose job it is to locate jump points isn't much use unless it can explore them, too.

My plan at the moment is to first fully map the Sol system for jump points, without actually entering any of them. If we have any weapons finished by then, we will set up a few defenses and then start exploring, by using the Grav-scout to assisted-jump the smaller and much cheaper Geo-scouts through the Jump Point instead of entering the "wormhole" itself.

If we have no weapons ready by the time the Sol system is fully mapped, I will ask the Council for advice on whether to delay our break-out into the Galaxy for a few more years while we research, design and build some weapons; or whether they would prefer to take the risk of simultaneously exploring and weaponizing.

 

[unmerged(361462)]

So, in regards, how goes missile development technology?

 

[stamasd]

Not a council member, but I say delay until we're ready. There's no real pressure to rush.

 

[billy bob]

Dear Diary,

It has been a few long years of colonizing Mars for me. During this time me and my crew have become experts at moving these people to become the first Martians humanity has ever seen.

What I have heard is that these are supposed to be some of the best people that humanity has to offer. If that is so, I worry about our people. All I ever hear is complaining from them. It seems a few of them were volunteered for this duty and didn't have a say. Bah! I volunteered for our military and expected to be stuck guarding the border with Korea, not to be in some giant tin can that if someone sneezed at would break apart in a thousand pieces. They can get over their fear, like I did with mine. When I got told I was to command the first colony ship mankind had, all I said was, "Sir, yes Sir!"

These civvies just don't understand anything right now. One of them brought their dog on board! Not just any kind of dog, but a goddamn chihuahua. Do these people not understand it will be a hard life on Mars? And much less, that dog uses air and food that we need. One problem happens and we can be adrift for weeks while repair ships come out. We have resources to last some time but I do not trust those Mule drivers. Just something wrong about a man who flies out past where one can see the Sun. Back at base one time I ran into one of them just staring at his drink. I left to take a nap, came back and he was still in the exact same spot.

Well, time for a new assignment. This Wheeler Corp or whatever has been trying to beat my record time. Those scumbags do everything for profit. Can't stand them. Hopefully those rumors of jump particles or whatever are true and I can blast my way out of this place and get some freedom from these crazy civvies.

Commodore Billy Bob

 

[TheExecuter]

We won't be deploying any Jump-Point fortresses until we've located the jump points, naturally. But once located, the jump points are very strategic locations indeed. Not only do they represent bottle-necks through which the great majority of our potential enemies must pass in order to reach us, there is also jump-shock to be considered. Ships are almost helpless for anywhere from two to five minutes after a jump... it's the ideal time to smash them at short range, while they can't even target you in return. Naturally, in order to smash them "at short range", you need to be deployed practically on top of the jump point BEFORE the enemy comes through. That's where the towed fortresses come in... it would be wasteful to use our mobile fleet in this role.

Indeed...however, building the jump point fortresses removes any diplomatic flexibility we have. Any ship, warship or not, coming through that jump gate will be destroyed...thereby ensuring a conflict with aliens who may have been friendly.

I just don't see the benefit in tying down large amounts of precious resources holding points which are not critical to defend. I would much rather spend those resources developing our mobile fleet, and taking the small increase in risk that that entails.

The sad reality is that, even with the jump shock...we can not ensure that our enemy will be completely destroyed. And if he isn't completely destroyed, the fortress will be breached.

I fear we will face another 'Fort Jackson and Fort St. Philip' situation if we rely on fixed defenses to defend the jump points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Forts_Jackson_and_St._Philip

It makes much better sense to deploy a fleet base at the closest planetary body, complete with long-range sensors (to tell who comes through the gate), and the capability to deploy ships / fighters if we deem defending the jump point area is key. We then have the flexibility to withdraw and concentrate our fleet if that is necessary.

If we go with the static defense of the jump point, we have to be certain that our jump point defense will ALWAYS defeat the invader...any invader. If the fortress fails, then it wasn't worth the effort investing in the fortress.

So, to sum up...we lose diplomatic flexibility...and we lose tactical flexibility...and we commit ourselves to an indefinite sink of resources into fortresses which we cannot know will be effective.

 

[Sirce]

Well, its unlikely but possible that an NPR or hostile force being the next system. If we build jump point defense, its to make sure they don't get to our homeworld. Right now, a temporary base of protection is very important. A mobile fleet to respond to threats but the base is to neutralize that threat, or at least slow them down.

 

[TheExecuter]

Well, its unlikely but possible that an NPR or hostile force being the next system. If we build jump point defense, its to make sure they don't get to our homeworld. Right now, a temporary base of protection is very important. A mobile fleet to respond to threats but the base is to neutralize that threat, or at least slow them down.

Then place the base next to the items that need protecting.

What happens if the hostiles aren't destroyed in the first few salvoes administered during jump shock? Why spend the resources to build enough defenses at five or six separate locations...when we can put those resources into protecting earth and mars, which, at this point, are the only things worth protecting right now?

I do not think the few seconds of jump shock represent enough of a combat advantage to outweigh the tactical advantage of interior lines and flexibility.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

I just caught up with the game, looking good so far. I agree with the decision to keep Luna as a military reserve, we can always terraform it later like you said. I eagerly await First Contact after Sol has been fully explored and somewhat fortified. All races of sentiments should have the right to benefit from the Imperial administration.

RP
So many changes in the last few years, it was not even a decade ago when I fought for one Empire against the Unification Government that was ultimately victorious. Before I would be appalled at my rejection of tradition, but now with the entirety of the human race working together under one banner I can see the foolishness that drove us to oppose Unification. It's funny how things work out, once an Imperial Marine and now again only now instead of man to man combat in the sweltering islands of the pacific I find myself on the new Martian colony, keeping order amongst the restless masses.

For now, I am a glorified policeman but I try to keep the men in fighting trim. A rigorous training schedule in the new combat suits has resulted in acceptable attrition rates from accidents and maintenance failures. Building what will ultimately be the mailed fist of human expansion will be a long and costly process but the honor and the importance of it cannot be overstated. We don't know who or where they are only that they exist.

A quick look in a petri dish will tell you what happens when one species stops expanding when another does not so we must be ready to carry the flag of the domain of man into land, air, sea and space. Unless the admirals want to sterilize every bit of hostile real estate it wll be our boots the will take and hold planets. It is our moral duty to expand Terran life to every corner of space and while I may not live to see the first days of our extra solar conquest, the ground we lay today will ensure that my son, all of our brave sons wlll lead the march to human domination of the galaxy for now and forever.

LTC Baron Jukaga,
Terran Imperial Marine Corps

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

I do not think the few seconds of jump shock represent enough of a combat advantage to outweigh the tactical advantage of interior lines and flexibility.

The figure blue emu gave was 2 to 5 minutes. With rapid fire short range weapons, that's an extreme advantage - 24 to 60 unanswered volleys. Personally I think it's worthwhile in Sol in the short term, but not in any further systems we expand into or as a long term solution.

Eventually we will need an actual fleet, but until we gain massive technological and industrial superiority fleets can't be everywhere at once. We must accept the possibility of hostiles attacking Sol while the fleet is distracted or not in condition to fight. Death lasers on the moon are definitely the best option long term for denying the space around Earth in that eventuality, but right now we can't count on surviving a toe to toe encounter with any invaders. 2 to 5 minutes of unanswered fire is a massive force leveller, that well makes up for the small dispersal of forces required to guard one system's jump points.

 

[billy bob]

The figure blue emu gave was 2 to 5 minutes. With rapid fire short range weapons, that's an extreme advantage - 24 to 60 unanswered volleys. Personally I think it's worthwhile in Sol in the short term, but not in any further systems we expand into or as a long term solution.

Eventually we will need an actual fleet, but until we gain massive technological and industrial superiority fleets can't be everywhere at once. We must accept the possibility of hostiles attacking Sol while the fleet is distracted or not in condition to fight. Death lasers on the moon are definitely the best option long term for denying the space around Earth in that eventuality, but right now we can't count on surviving a toe to toe encounter with any invaders. 2 to 5 minutes of unanswered fire is a massive force leveller, that well makes up for the small dispersal of forces required to guard one system's jump points.

I agree. Sol should be the only area with them, but Sol should have them. Most likely being the population center of our empire makes it imminently useful to guard. And the small amount of time they have to destroy ships should let them make up for their cost anyways.

 

[Capt. Kiwi]

As for diplomatic concerns, frankly a little interplanetary war with someone other than the precursors is just what a forum game needs in my opinion

 

[randakar]

Our largest commercial shipyard has expanded to exactly 102,000 tons capacity, just large enough to build this puppy... it helps a lot in your planning if you already know the answer before-hand... and it is now retooling to build them. That will take a while, but there's no rush: we don't even have Tractor Beams researched and a Tug designed yet, let alone launched.

Hmm. So in theory it now *is* possible to do something like I did with the Starship Trooper / Ming / Ox set of designs: A "tooling" design that only exists so that shipyards can get tooled to build the other two ships.
Not sure what use you have right now for freighters with ten holds (Two times larger than a standard freighter) and troop transports with the capacity to move a full division, though..

edit: @lord emu - are you keeping the uploaded game files up to date? If so, which one? The rapidshare one or the dropbox one?


@TheExecuter - The idea is to survey sol for jump points, and then for each jump point, first tow a bunch of those fortresses in place, and *then* send a scout through. While that scout is still exploring the place the jump point will be heavily defended. If something agressive lives on the other side, it won't be able to get to us without having to get past them.
Once the exploration is done we leave one of those fortresses in place and move the rest of them to the next jump point. Wash, rince, repeat.

Long term I agree with you - what we should start doing then is use the fortresses as a backup for the *real* fleet, that gets send in first to clean the place out rather than merely scouting it.
Preferably with troop transports in support so that we can immediately invade any inhabited planets in that system, should we decide such a plan is feasible.

As for diplomatic concerns, frankly a little interplanetary war with someone other than the precursors is just what a forum game needs in my opinion

Seconded!

 

[Stuckenschmidt]

As for diplomatic concerns, frankly a little interplanetary war with someone other than the precursors is just what a forum game needs in my opinion

You surely want to say, that, with regards to the benefit of men and all other species, a new world order advocating liberty and freedom shall be implemented.

 

[randakar]

Yep, it's definitely possible in this version of the game.
Using the savegame from yesterday, I created the following designs:

Double-standard size freighter:

Ox class Freighter    79,350 tons     310 Crew     1264.5 BP      TCS 1587  TH 2000  EM 0
1260 km/s     Armour 1-164     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 10    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 11.5 months    Spare Berths 0    
Cargo 50000    Cargo Handling Multiplier 20    

200 EP Commercial Nuclear Pulse Engine (10)    Power 200    Fuel Use 7.07%    Signature 200    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,500,000 Litres    Range 48.1 billion km   (442 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Division-size troop transport:

Ming class Troop Transport    81,350 tons     430 Crew     1882 BP      TCS 1627  TH 1200  EM 0
737 km/s     Armour 1-167     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 14    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 11.5 months    Spare Berths 1    
Troop Capacity: 25 Battalions    Cargo Handling Multiplier 10    

200 EP Commercial Nuclear Pulse Engine (6)    Power 200    Fuel Use 7.07%    Signature 200    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 900,000 Litres    Range 28.1 billion km   (442 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Shipyards tooled to either of these cannot build the other design.

However, shipyards tooled for this:

Star Trooper class Troop Transport    79,800 tons     500 Crew     2051 BP      TCS 1596  TH 2000  EM 0
1253 km/s     Armour 1-165     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 16    Max Repair 50 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 11.5 months    Spare Berths 0    
Troop Capacity: 20 Battalions    Cargo Handling Multiplier 20    

200 EP Commercial Nuclear Pulse Engine (10)    Power 200    Fuel Use 7.07%    Signature 200    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 1,500,000 Litres    Range 47.9 billion km   (442 days at full power)

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

Can build both.

These are proof-of-concept only - I have no idea where to set the "spare berths" number, for instance (UI looks a tad screwy though, maybe it just isn't visible) and I haven't optimized for a nice round tonnage size yet. So there's definitely room for improvement.
But if you want to get serious about moving large amounts of troops around, division-size units are by far the most convenient things to move, even though the ship to move them with is rather slow.

 

[Rendap]

Aurora automatically assign the spare berths, based on the intended deployment time (upper left corner).

 

[randakar]

Aurora automatically assign the spare berths, based on the intended deployment time (upper left corner).

that doesn't .. oh wait.
Right, if I set deployment time to 12.2 months, and use the "Keep excess Q" checkbox in the top right corner, then bring the deployment time down again to 11.5 months I get some spare berths.
Right. This is in no way counterintuitive, sir. No way.

That being said, I now know how to do that

edit:
The above tooling trick isn't entirely without cost, mind: Shipyard retool cost is half the cost of the ship design.
The BP cost for the Ming is 1882 BP, the Ox 1264.5 BP, and the Star Trooper 2051 BP.
Meaning that if you just want to retool to build the Ox with the option to build Mings, that retool costs you 1025 credits(plus assorted minerals) (per slipway?) rather than the normal 633 for the retool to just the freighter.
So for just the freighter it's not that great an idea. But, if you want the troop transport with the option to build freighters as well .. that difference is pretty small.

 

[blue emu]

that doesn't .. oh wait.
Right, if I set deployment time to 12.2 months, and use the "Keep excess Q" checkbox in the top right corner, then bring the deployment time down again to 11.5 months I get some spare berths.
Right. This is in no way counterintuitive, sir. No way.

That being said, I now know how to do that

edit:
The above tooling trick isn't entirely without cost, mind: Shipyard retool cost is half the cost of the ship design.
The BP cost for the Ming is 1882 BP, the Ox 1264.5 BP, and the Star Trooper 2051 BP.
Meaning that if you just want to retool to build the Ox with the option to build Mings, that retool costs you 1025 credits(plus assorted minerals) (per slipway?) rather than the normal 633 for the retool to just the freighter.
So for just the freighter it's not that great an idea. But, if you want the troop transport with the option to build freighters as well .. that difference is pretty small.

No, I haven't been keeping the file up to date. I can do that later, on request, rather than upload a separate file each day.

The way to get spare berths is to set up the ship the way you want it, including deployment time, and then click "Keep excess Q" and now you can add crew quarters of different sizes, with an immediate effect on spare berths.

It took me a few tries to figure it out, once I started playing around in v6.21

Any ship, warship or not, coming through that jump gate will be destroyed...thereby ensuring a conflict with aliens who may have been friendly.

Any HOSTILE ship. Neutrals are only fired on if you give that order manually, and they do not set off mines (AFAIK). Although as pointed out above, a good war always livens things up. Perhaps in our next game I should be "Darth Emu", and our goal should be to build a Death Star and slag a rebellious planet with it.

 

[blue emu]

So, in regards, how goes missile development technology?

We have researched the most primitive level of Magazine Capacity, Magazine Feed, Warhead, Missile Agility, and Missile Launcher Reload Rate. We have studied two levels of Engines (NTE and NPE), two levels of Fuel Efficiency (which will extend their range a bit) and two levels of Thrust Augmentation (which will speed them up by quite a bit, improving to-Hit and also reducing time-to-target and making them harder to shoot down).

Ideally, I would like to have at least one more level of Warhead, one more of Agility, one more Engine tech (Ion Drive) and two more levels of Thrust Augmentation before we actually start using missiles in combat. The ones that we can design right now aren't too impressive. Plus, our Missile Launcher Reload Rate sucks. Big time.

 

[blue emu]

Our 5000-ton Jump Drive has been researched! Pre-building a couple now. How does this look for a Grav-Scout?

Scientist class Science Vessel 5,000 tons 130 Crew 703 BP TCS 100 TH 240 EM 0
2400 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 2-26 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/2/0 Damage Control Rating 5 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.03 Years MSP 439 AFR 40% IFR 0.6% 1YR 29 5YR 434 Max Repair 120 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months Spare Berths 1

J5000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 5000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
240 EP Nuclear Pulse Engine (1) Power 240 Fuel Use 56% Signature 240 Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 630,000 Litres Range 40.5 billion km (195 days at full power)

Gravitational Survey Sensors (2) 2 Survey Points Per Hour

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

The fuel storage is just a bit short for a scout... not sure what I could remove to make room for more, though. Two layers of armor for moving through Nebulae. Lots of Engineering spares. Half-decent speed for NPE tech level. Pretty good fuel efficiency for a military design. Two sensors to double the search rate, and to provide a spare in case of maintenance failures.

EDIT : Pre-build complete, and the ESNS Aristarchus has been laid down. ETA seven months. We have components pre-built for a second one. Will we need more than two at this stage of the game?