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There was, only instead of asking what the person meant by saying that those limitations are there for balance, you went on with proving your are right by presenting your interpretation of the game description. IMO just as in the case of un-digging corridors, if you think about it, there is usually a reason for the particular design decision tied to the dev's goals. After all this is not a sandbox dungeon builder, its story driven campaign.(at least in my impression). Anyway I can't careless which of you are right and will avoid further comment on this exchange.
 
Just have to say that OP is pretty spot on.

Also this Scynix guy is the same guy that zealously defended the game on steam forums so I wouldn't listen to his biased agenda.
 
You also had no choice of your dungeon heart placement in DK.

Map limitations (especially important facilities) forces you to adopt new designs with each different map. If you can place whatever you want on every map, designs become templates, not dungeons. The most optical template is used in every instance, because there's no limitation to your design.

In fact, being forced to redesign your dungeon with each map is PART OF THE GAME. It's PART OF STRATEGY. It's what MAKES YOUR DESIGN YOURS. Because you do it differently than other people do.

I don't even understand how you're completely missing this.

And thanks for confirming it's inaccurate because *you say it is*.

Well that sure sounded like a swell idea when you were discussing it on your coffebreak dear Mr Dev. But here's the user experience: You realise the dev sat there and merrily thought, yes! and the workshop has an entrance in each side, which means that if the player put's it right here! Then he can just accurately make room for a prison right there! Man that is good!
 
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So far I've seen only a handful of people really eager to support this game and say "The design choices are good!" While the majority of people I find HATE the game. Can you gluttons for punishment stop making excuses and see that this game sucks?

It's the same thing as with Kalypso's Dungeons, there were a very very small group of hardcore fans that went white knighting on their forums to try to counter anything bad about the game and only quieted down after Kalypso changed some things in the game that people were complainging about as then it would have been pointless to white knight those items since the developers/publishers acknowledged the shortcoming themselves.

So don't worry about it.

And yes, I read your entire first post up there above and agree almost 90% with it. Perhaps Cyanide can make things better with updates but I doubt it will change the game radically, it would be like taking Dungeons (that Kalypso game) and changing the way that the dungeon master harvests heroes and instead turns it completely around and makes it more DK'ish, it wasn't going to happen there and it won't happen here, but perhaps they can do something to the game in updates to make it more tolerable.
 
It's the same thing as with Kalypso's Dungeons, there were a very very small group of hardcore fans that went white knighting on their forums to try to counter anything bad about the game and only quieted down after Kalypso changed some things in the game that people were complainging about as then it would have been pointless to white knight those items since the developers/publishers acknowledged the shortcoming themselves.

So don't worry about it.

And yes, I read your entire first post up there above and agree almost 90% with it. Perhaps Cyanide can make things better with updates but I doubt it will change the game radically, it would be like taking Dungeons (that Kalypso game) and changing the way that the dungeon master harvests heroes and instead turns it completely around and makes it more DK'ish, it wasn't going to happen there and it won't happen here, but perhaps they can do something to the game in updates to make it more tolerable.


Man...Dungeons was terrible I bought it thinking YAY! then...not so much I heard they changed some things but I refuse to give it another try...let the heroes live? I THINK NOT!
 
Yeah I know, Dungeons was roasted in general by the gaming public. For me, once I got over the idea that I had to let heroes wander around my dungeon so that I could harvest them the game became a better game but not a great game by any stretch of the imagination. The thing that I hated the most was the busy bee work in Dungeons, just as you get settled in you've go to go stop yet *another* wave of skeletons coming up the stair case. That kind of game design just plain annoys me to no end. To me one of the big shortcomings in Dungeons was that I never really felt too evil at all.

In Impire it feels the same with the ladders, once you get settled in and are having some fun (whatever that fun is to the player) you get alerted that yet *another* wave of heroes has put ladders into your dungeon, stop fun, teleport squads, destroy ladders or kill heroes, then go about the fun again.
 
It's the same thing as with Kalypso's Dungeons, there were a very very small group of hardcore fans that went white knighting on their forums to try to counter anything bad about the game and only quieted down after Kalypso changed some things in the game that people were complainging about as then it would have been pointless to white knight those items since the developers/publishers acknowledged the shortcoming themselves.

So don't worry about it.

And yes, I read your entire first post up there above and agree almost 90% with it. Perhaps Cyanide can make things better with updates but I doubt it will change the game radically, it would be like taking Dungeons (that Kalypso game) and changing the way that the dungeon master harvests heroes and instead turns it completely around and makes it more DK'ish, it wasn't going to happen there and it won't happen here, but perhaps they can do something to the game in updates to make it more tolerable.
Either they acknowledged the shortcoming or followed the money ;) As for the rest it has nothing todo with hardcore fans, but annoyance with people who decided that the game should be something that it isn't, only because it has a dungeon. Though admittedly I too hoped for DK like game, but I quickly realized that their take is on the RTS side, with story driven camping and multiplayer focus, rather than single player Dungeon building/management sandbox which I have been wishing for ever since DK.(still hoping that 'war of the overworld' deliver).

Still IMO the game has a lot of potential, but it is squandered by people with misgivings about what it is, based on which they claim it is retarded and bashing it thinking that core elements will be changed in a patch :rolleyes: , changing the game radically into something that it isn't. I find this approach to be trollish, as much as if I was posting on any game forum I come across that has some elements of dungeon/sim/strategy and say it is retarded and shallow, because there is no way it can live up to Dwarf fortress complexity and anyone who disagree don't get it singing with.
 
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Still IMO the game has a lot of potential, but it is squandered by people with misgivings about what it is,
The game is what it is, for good and for bad.

Any player is entitled to like what it is or not to like it.

Any potential the game has cannot be squandered by anybody but the development team.

I think the development team has dropped the ball on a number of design issues (mostly having to do with trying to be too many things at once while very definitely not being Dungeon Keeper and ending up with something where the various parts fail to mesh well), and that they've definitely launched with more stability-affecting bugs that I'm happy with, as a result of which Impire is unlikely to ever be considered more than a mediocre game that fails to live up to its potential, you might rightfully differ.

Ultimately, the proof will be in the pudding, namely whether Cyanide's game is good enough that enough people choose to buy the inevitable DLC that justifies somebody funding a sequel. If they do, then their design was good enough, if not, not.

Regardless of how this turns out, some buyers will think their money was well spent on Impire and some will think their money wasted, and they'll all be right.
 
If someone buys HOI and goes about how it is a micro anal trap and the worst game ever. Is it true or it true for him and he should have done his research? *rant* In fact this exactly how I feel about many of those self admitted DK old timers, who bought the game and now whine about it. It never stop to amaze the madness of buying new iteration/variants of classical games over again and over again, each time realizing its catering to another audience or its a different genre entirely and yet continue to buy without properly reviewing them each time expecting it to be IT.

As for your second part, I hope you didn't wrote it with assumption that I am trying to defend the game(I actually decided not ot buy it after figuring its not what I was looking for). If you have any issues with the game you SHOULD voice them out, IMO open line of communication and constructive criticism / discussion on how to fix it is the way to go, but that have to be in constructive manner and not coming from a place of "WTF this is not DK".
 
Mor2:
whining is one thing. You can see, that devs. of HOI knew about microhell when automatization by AI was implemented on a lot of different layers.

You can see, that most of "whining" is actually from FANS that want to buy DLC etc., because they like the game. They want to have even better game because they see potential.

We can see hell a lot of different features, that need the expanding. And then would be briliant. Such as overworld. With few changes, more impact, strategic possibilities and managing, it could be wonderfull.
But aggressive defens is as bad as aggresive criticism. It just divide the camp and create flame.

Citybuilder: hi man!
 
First of all, I did not buy this game expecting it would be a DK3. I expected this game to be what the devs claimed a squad based RTS mixed with dungeons management.
The game is really wel presented it looks really nice the atmosphere is great. The details are in the different rooms is terrific. And I really like the dec points system. And I also like when you are in the building mode you can see snapshots of what your troops are doing that is a cool thing.

But sadly in the gameplay department it fails to deliver on all parts. The dungeon management part is absent since the rooms are pre-built and the heroes spawn radomly if you dont destroy the ladders.
I never had problems with the ladders But I never used traps since I can just teleport everything on top of the heroes. Now I would have been ok with the lack of dungeon customization,
since THe devs claimed this was a squad based RTS.

But again sadly the RTS part also fails to deliver. There is no strategy involved in it I just zerg everything an that's. There is no strategic value in positioning your units since the enemy can walk trough a mob and attack any
unit it wants to. Flanking is absent, I just selct my dudes and zerg the enemy and just wait till one of them dies. So the RTS has no depth at all.

Besides those core gameplay issues, we have the constantly apearing ladders that are a nuisance and not a challenge. We have the lack of AI, and tedious micro-management most of the micro-management feels like its meant to fill gaps, just so that you have something to do. And lastly we have tons of game breaking bugs, the game crashes and it is unstable.

So In my opinion Impire ends up being a well presented game with some cool features. But it it has no gameplay depth, it utterly fails to deliver on the RTS part as well as on the dungeon management part. Furthermore it is unstable riddles with bugs and other major issues and it feels like an unfinished product.

And this makes me sad, since it has alot of potential but Impire tries alot things it isn't. if thet would have focused on either the rts part or Dungeon management part it would have been great I think.
But on the other hand the game also feels really unfinished so perhaps it needed another 6 months of development. But I know one thing in its current state the game is just awful and unplayable.
 
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I completely agree with OP, this is a game with great potential but have many frustating flaws and you as a player dont have freedom as in Dungeon Keeper. Everything is restricted and the micromanaging with ladders/food/teleport by one and one is godamned frustating!

Personally, I think there are a lot to be done with the game before it reaches any potential
 
I completely agree with OP and I strongly disagree with Scynix who keeps popping up on every thread defending this rather mediocre game. Honestly, this is not worth buying or even „trying”, if you know what I mean. Time is much too precious. If I ever buy it, it would be just to support Paradox, maybe some of the funding from this disaster will go into something worthwhile. But I would rather buy Warlock, for example.

On the bright side, it's not as bad as Dungeons, it's not as tedious as AGoD and hell knows what War for the Overworld will be like, probably a horrible mess. So it still might come out at the top of the whole bunch, in proper time.
 
So In my opinion Impire ends up being a well presented game with some cool features. But it it has no gameplay depth, it utterly fails to deliver on the RTS part as well as on the dungeon management part.

Sadly, this is what some people (myself included) call the game a jack of all trades. Not particularly good at any individual aspect but tries to cover multiple aspects.

There have been a lot of jack of all trade games in the past and all that I can remember have fallen into that pile of games of mediocrity.

Impire needs fleshing out, it needs the dungeon management to be beefed up and improved, as well as the overland raids need something more to them than a room that you send your minions to and they come back. My squads should mean more to me than they do in Impire. When I send out a squad to a raid and the squad comes back with only one member it means nothing to me other than I got the resource I was after and I've got to click a few more buttons to refill my squad be it creating new members of the squad of shifting members from other squads.

It does have a couple nice features, one in particular is the picture in picture system, but this also means that many players are simply going to play from the map view a great deal of the time because there's little reason to go down close and lose the overall picture of your entire game and where everything is. For somebody that enjoys to playing more of a dungeon management system I imagine it loses a lot of fun this way.

I don't know what the answer is, although there have been a lot of suggestions floated around that sounded pretty good, many of which would not change the overall core game play but only improve on it, but how much work is Paradox willing to pay Cyanide to do to this game, IMHO, Paradox has been in a pretty defensive mode about the criticism that has been launched at the game thus far while still maintaining that "first sale run" attitude of "we are listening". Kind of like other publishers / developers that I've dealt with in the past where they are listening and taking under advisement suggestions to improve their product until the first run sales and or DLC sales are over, then it simply turns to "no, that is not something we'll be doing", which is understandable since they want to sell as many units as possible by saying they're listening but not firmly promising anything.

Well, we wait and see. What will Cyanide do (if anything) to make this game more palatable to both RTS and DM type of players I wonder. Could they beef up both the RTS and DM sides of the game without it costing them all their profits. Time will tell, and gamers are getting longer memories, it used to be that we as gamers used to forget about games that we thought were trash but we're remembering longer now those games that did not please us and ultimately this means more or less sales for certain developers/publishers. The ones that are killing us are those that are even so bold as to state that they don't care about anything, they'll buy whatever the developers throw at them, it doesn't matter to them if the last game the developer released was left in a shamble and full of bugs when they stopped working on it or not, they'll continue to throw money at their screen to buy a game or DLC at first light.

On the bright side, it's not as bad as Dungeons, it's not as tedious as AGoD and hell knows what War for the Overworld will be like, probably a horrible mess. So it still might come out at the top of the whole bunch, in proper time.
Oh and really people should go back and try Dungeons dark lord again, it became an infinitely more enjoyable game after playing with Impire, you can take that either as a slur against Impire, or that Kalypso had their developers do just enough (of course we paid for it with expansion or DLC) to make the game just improved enough to make it more enjoyable, but only if you can get over the whole premise that you need to fatten your heroes for harvesting instead of just outright killing them. Personally I'm enjoying the dungeon management/building aspect of Dark lord very much, but only in a custom game, the campaign to me was just rubbish.

Sure it has a lot of shortcomings in the dungeon management department, lacks many rooms that I would have liked to see included but I do dig digging my tunnels and creating my own rooms and setting my own traps and troops where I like to try to make the heroes as fat as possible before they are killed with only my creatures/minions and or traps. It's like a game in a game for me to try to NOT use my dungeoneer to kill the enemy and try to setup good dungeon layouts so that my heroes are as fat as possible before they hit the next event that finally kills them. It's actually a blast to play after playing Impire, the jack of all trades game.

P.S. Hi Colombo
 
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City Builder: Many have talked about the idea of fatening heroes being something strange. I think that this was totally fantastic. But the execution was BAD.

And I didn't get enough feel of evilousness. Though harvesting heroes soul/happines after throwing cakes before them, that is quite evil.
 
Impire needs fleshing out, it needs the dungeon management to be beefed up and improved, as well as the overland raids need something more to them than a room that you send your minions to and they come back. My squads should mean more to me than they do in Impire. When I send out a squad to a raid and the squad comes back with only one member it means nothing to me other than I got the resource I was after and I've got to click a few more buttons to refill my squad be it creating new members of the squad of shifting members from other squads.

It does have a couple nice features, one in particular is the picture in picture system, but this also means that many players are simply going to play from the map view a great deal of the time because there's little reason to go down close and lose the overall picture of your entire game and where everything is. For somebody that enjoys to playing more of a dungeon management system I imagine it loses a lot of fun this way.
I had a similar experience. Few notes:
1. Regarding the overland raids, I understand that there is more to it, but it is utilized only when the game is played in MP with several players. Regardless, in SP I stand by my initial feedback it just feels blend and leaves you wanting for more.
2. I agree with connection thing, I didn't felt it with the squads, dungeon or my evil self. Unfortunately I am biased, thus all my suggestion where god game orentated, while they probably should learn more from warhammer ?
3. I actually found that "preview/zoom" window brilliant and work well for an RTS, though it indeed means that most of the time you are not going to appropriate their artist work.
 
So fare there hasn't been any counter-arguments to my arguments. To make it easier they just choose to attack me directly, but I'm not the topic of this discussion -- Impire is. So far Impire is a total mess and I really do desire to express my honest frustrations with it. Why? Because I hope for a more improved game. Will all of my comments be addresses? No. Do I expect them to be? No. Why do I share them? Because on the internet, let's be quite frank -- typically one is not completely alone in their views. There are always people who share in those views: this is how communities are born. I just want to express that frustration as best I can and illustrate it. So far I've done well in that task but most replies in this thread are mainly aimed at me and do very little to really promote logical discussion.

You haven't done this well at all. You brought the aims at you on yourself. Instead of using constructive criticism to convey your issues in a calm tone, you use words like "MINE" and "SHOULD" as if your the most entitled gamer on paradox forums and your opinion and only your opinion counts. Secondly, you think I'm "white-knighting" around the forums because I'm being helpful to people that have questions? Did you even see the short first impression/review I gave this game. 6.5 is hardly a good score. I took this game for what it was. I read all the previews and watched the 2hour demo and I determined that it was just going to be a single player game with a tacked on multilayer experience and I got what I expected. You called me a jackass for simply suggesting another game that isn't out yet. You have more than 5 threads and in CAPS on what you HATE about this game. Again, HATE is a very strong word and it wreaks of an entitlement mentality where everything should be given to you.

I agree that the ladders can be annoying to deal with when your trying to focus on an objective but I was able to learn the game and build my rooms and hallways in a manner that allowed me to use ladders to my advantage. Because I'm smart enough to build the dungeon the way I see fit and stay within the boundaries of the game logic. Could this be improved upon? Of course! They desperately need to improve the AI and the UI. They need to improve many aspects of the game play. But just as I did in my review, I tried to calmly state what needed to change. I didn't feel a need to say "GOD I HATE THIS GAME SO MUCH AAAARRRRRRGGGGGG!" Then use false logic to justify why you hate the game. You really want to get runes in a multiplayer game when your the only player in it? Really? You want to do nothing and get something for it? You really think that just because there are some pre-built rooms on the map that its not your dungeon? Even though you do place and build just like the description states. Entitlement. Its this kind of toxic mentality that destroys communities.
 
Ok, this has gone on long enough and its getting out of hand. Im closing this thread, if you have any issues PM me directly.
 
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