Hello, I'm Crusader Kings II developer Goosecreature. You may remember me from such Developer Diaries as "Events and Decisions" and "The Heathens are Coming." Today I'll be talking a bit about - you guessed it - the events and decisions of The Old Gods. This expansion will introduce many of these and not just for the Vikings.

As a Norse Pagan, you can hold a blot every nine years during winter. This is a good way of making your vassals like you more, and it is somewhat similar to a feast with one big difference – the human sacrifice. During a blot, four random prisoners will be brought up from your dungeon and you will have to decide whether or not to sacrifice them to the Allfather for prestige and piety. If you have no prisoners, some nameless thralls will be sacrificed instead but this won't bring you nearly as much renown. Anyone can be sacrificed, including close family members, but you will earn extra piety if your victim is a Christian or a Muslim. These are harsh times and the world is not a friendly place.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_05_Blot_Sacrifice.jpg

Another way of increasing your prestige is to commission a runestone. This can be done only once in a character's lifetime, and you can choose to devote it either to yourself or one of your parents. The Scandinavian dueling tradition of holmgång is also in the game, and Norse characters can, under certain circumstances, challenge each other to single combat on an isolated islet. There are also events for Norse characters leaving to join the Varangian Guard, the discovery of Greenland and Vinland, characters gaining the Viking or Berserker traits, the appearance of the Jomsvikings and the Seljuks, völur (mystic seers) joining your court, and many more.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_05_Holmgang.jpg

The Mongols will have a decision to hold the nerge, a great hunt in which most of their army participates. This is in essence a massive military training exercise that sees the different wings of the Mongol army coordinating maneuvers and driving wildlife before them in close formation. Once encircled, the wildlife is killed and the army gains both provisions and invaluable experience working together as a single fighting force. Doing this will give your armies a morale boost.

Suomenusko pagans will be able to hold the Ukon Juhla festival, where they worship the god Ukko in the hope of improving their harvests. For Romuva pagans, the Užgavenes festival can be held in spring, where effigies to winter are burnt and the coming of summer is celebrated. Finally, Slavic pagans can hold a festival in the name of the god Jarilo, in which a random vassal is given the honor of representing Jarilo and paraded around wearing bells and other glamorous clothing.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_05_Jarilo.jpg

This doesn't cover everything, but as I wanted to write a bit about something else, it will have to do for now.

There have been a lot of requests for us to go into more detail on the Zoroastrians, which is something we hadn't originally planned to do for the Dev Diaries. In order to please YOU (yes, you in particular), the next part of this diary will be devoted to them.

For those who aren't familiar with it, Zoroastrianism is an ancient religion that originated in Persia. It predates the Abrahamic faiths by quite a bit, and was the state religion of the Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid empires. Its decline as a major religion came with the Arab invasion of Persia and the spread of Islam in the 7th century, but pockets would still remain in the Central Asian hinterlands of the former Sassanid Empire centuries later.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_05_Zoroastrian_Persia.jpg

By 867, the common folk in several parts of Persia still cling to Zoroastrianism but they are the subjects of Muslim rulers and their conversion to the Mohammedan faith is only a matter of time. Just north of these domains, along the eastern shores of the Caspian Sea, Satrap Vandad of the Karen dynasty rules the last independent Zoroastrian realm on the map. This is a challenging starting position and reclaiming Persia and its holy sites for the Zoroastrian faith will not be easy, but it can be done.

Zoroastrianism is not a member of the Pagan religious group, and so they have no need to reform their religion. They will start the game in 867 without a High Priest, but if you hold the Persian Empire there is a decision to restore the position of the Moabadan-Moabad (the Priest of Priests). Just like the Pope, this priest can grant divorces and sanction invasions against other Zoroastrian realms. You'll probably be the only one at this point, so this likely won't do you much good unless your carefully built Zoroastrian empire fragments in civil war.

Also, Zoroastrian rulers are able to enter holy marriages with close relatives of the opposite gender. Such a sacred union will increase their standing among vassals, but producing a healthy heir may become a problem... fortunately, you can always fall back on your concubines for that.

View attachment CKII_ToG_DD_05_The_Zoroastrian_Church.jpg

If you manage to stage a miraculous Zoroastrian recovery and reclaim the Persian Empire, you will have the option of declaring yourself the Saoshyant, the chosen savior of the world mentioned in prophecy by Zoroaster himself. This will not only earn you a new nickname, but you will also get a new trait that significantly boosts the opinion of all Zoroastrian characters towards you. All future descendants of the Saoshyant will also get a less powerful version of this trait, even if they convert to a different religion.

That's all I have for now. I hope you'll have a pleasant Wednesday!

 

[Darkgamma]

Compare that with Zoroastrianism (dying out already in 867)...

Apparently, that death is still very much in waiting, as they seem to be still dying out (in 2013)~

 

[cybrxkhan]

Various forms of African paganism still exist today, and Malinese pagans were playing a significant role in civil wars throughout the CK2 period. I'd expect Ghana to be pagan-ruled in 867, and for count level pagans to last well into the CK2 period. I don't know if they'll group the Canaries in or not (they were completely different culturally and religiously, but Paradox may not want to spend resources developing a single-province religion), but they remained independent pagans until the 1400s.

Compare that with Zoroastrianism (dying out already in 867), much less with a sub-county level area that may have had some peasant remnants of a debased form of Greek paganism.

That's not to mention that African Islam was strongly syncretic and still held on to a good number of pagan believes until the rise of Jihad states in the region in the early 1800s - and even then, to this day, many pagan traditions remain. West African Muslim rulers had to delicately balance their pagan heritage and the new Islamic religion for centuries, and they often used symbols of both traditions in their rule.


EDIT: Though Zoroastrianism was also still sort of kicking in the 9th and 10th centuries. A number of anti-Arab rebellions were led by spiritual leaders who fused Muslim and Zoroastrian ideas, and rather explicitly too at times.

 

[Cliges]

For those who aren't familiar with it, Zoroastrianism is an ancient religion that originated in Persia. It predates the Abrahamic faiths by quite a bit

Zoroaster is supposed to have lived at about 570 BC- 500 BC. It's hard to say exactly when Judaism, the first Abrahamic religion, started but certainly some form of it was practiced before Zoroaster.

 

[Ivashanko]

As someone who is an expert of the Parthians on my university i have to say the dev diary is wrong to claim that the Zoroastrism was the state religion of the Parthians. This is allmost totally wrong. We know two Parthian Kings which had closer Courtiers which favoured this religion, but neither was any Parthian King Zoroastrier nor was it a state religion. The Parthians were Polytheistic and had their own gods and transfered them in the many greek gods.

The Old Persians were also not Zoroastrians. They whorshipped a preform of that religion were zoroas was not the most important part. Many also claim that the Symbol of the Zoroastrism (in the CoA of the Persian Empire in CK2) was also the Flagg of the Old Persians, but that is not proved. The simbol was found on a relief but that means nothing, because you have that with many symbols.

Finally the Zoroastrism is something that became state religion and really important the first time under the Sassanids.

A common viewpoint by historians (that goes back several centuries, but is increasingly in vogue now) is that early Zoroastrianism wasn't monotheist, but rather polytheist that (through contact with Judaism and, perhaps, Christianity) reformed into a monotheistic religion. In other words, the Parthians might still have been Zoroastrian even though they were polytheist.

How important were the west african pagans, and how much was already muslim in 867? To be honest, I (for one) couldn't care less about the african pagans.

Will sacrifices be possible in other events and for other than the norse? Will rank of the sacrifice matter when scoring prestige and piety for it? (for instance the Pope of Rome or the East Francian king? )

If I'm not much mistaken at least one county in Peloponnes should be Greek Pagan in 867, now that we are talking about insignificant small pagan religions.

Even in the sixteenth century (and maybe latter) the mass majority of West Africans were pagan, not Muslims.

 

[Darkgamma]

Zoroaster is supposed to have lived at about 570 BC- 500 BC. It's hard to say exactly when Judaism, the first Abrahamic religion, started, but certainly some form of it was practiced before Zoroaster.

But early Judaism wasn't monotheistic.

 

[nalivayko]

But early Judaism wasn't monotheistic.

Bible confirms.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Zoroaster is supposed to have lived at about 570 BC- 500 BC. It's hard to say exactly when Judaism, the first Abrahamic religion, started but certainly some form of it was practiced before Zoroaster.

When Zoroaster actually lived is heavily debated. The 6th century BCE is actually not as accepted among historians anymore, and many say that somewhere in the 2nd millennium BCE or even before is more plausible. That said, even his existed is uncertain - some historians go as so far as to claim he never existed.

But the religion that Zoroastrianism came out of, the Indo-Iranian religious tradition, is at least as old as Judaism, if not older. That's not to mention that the Judaism as practiced in ancient Israel isn't really the same as the Judaism today that emerged with the development of the Talmud in the first centuries of the common era.

A common viewpoint by historians (that goes back several centuries, but is increasingly in vogue now) is that early Zoroastrianism wasn't monotheist, but rather polytheist that (through contact with Judaism and, perhaps, Christianity) reformed into a monotheistic religion. In other words, the Parthians might still have been Zoroastrian even though they were polytheist.

This seems to be the argument I've been hearing as well. I'm lucky enough to have a professor who specializes in Iranian history, and took a class on Zoroastrianism with him. In class, he stated that monotheistic, "modern" Zoroastrianism as we know it was the result of Zoroastrian interactions with Europeans in the 18th and 19th century in India, where they wished to present themselves as "civilized", monotheists in contrast to the "polytheist" Hindus.

 

[Cliges]

But early Judaism wasn't monotheistic.

What's your source for non-Monotheistic Judaism after the appearance of Zoroastrianism? And whether it was after about 600 BC or not (which I have never heard) that's not the point; it still antedates Zoroaster regardless of any specific doctrine.

 

[Ivashanko]

But early Judaism wasn't monotheistic.

The construction of Judaism from the worship of El has become less popular as time's gone on (though still a large percentage of religious scholars still hold this viewpoint). The other theory (aside from, of course, that it was always as it is) is that it was taken off of an older monotheist faith, sometimes Zoroastrianism (which I doubt), or the strange experience Egypt had with Akhenaten.

 

[cybrxkhan]

What's your source for non-Monotheistic Judaism after the appearance of Zoroastrianism? And whether it was after about 600 BC or not (which I have never heard) that's not the point; it still antedates Zoroaster regardless of any specific doctrine.

As I said above, the religion that Zoroastrianism came out of, the Indo-Iranian religious tradition, is at least as old as Judaism, if not older. Archaeological evidence of peoples who practiced Indo-Iranian religious traditions date to at least 2000-2500 BCE, around the founding of Judaism and earlier, at the Bactria-Margiania Archaeological Complex in central Asia, with evidence of some sort of haoma usage and fire altars. It is quite possible the Indo-Iranian religioius tradition was practiced even before then.

 

[S. Bailly Smith]

What's your source for non-Monotheistic Judaism after the appearance of Zoroastrianism? And whether it was after about 600 BC or not (which I have never heard) that's not the point; it still antedates Zoroaster regardless of any specific doctrine.

The bible hints that at one time the Hebrews had a religion much like what is described in the Enuma Elish. In Genesis God is even called "the Dragon-slayer" at one point much like Marduk when he slew the water dragon Tiamat. Or God went off to join a British metal band...could be one or the other...

 

[Death6]

Great Dev Diary! Although a little extra work on the Norse Pagan symbol could be appreciated its definitely easy to do i guess.

 

[Cliges]

When Zoroaster actually lived is heavily debated. The 6th century BCE is actually not as accepted among historians anymore, and many say that somewhere in the 2nd millennium BCE or even before is more plausible. That said, even his existed is uncertain - some historians go as so far as to claim he never existed.

Well, the tradition was the Zoroaster lived something like 280 (I think) years before Alexander. IIRC, he was considered at least partly mythical by the time of Greek interactions, etc.

But the religion that Zoroastrianism came out of, the Indo-Iranian religious tradition, is at least as old as Judaism, if not older. That's not to mention that the Judaism as practiced in ancient Israel isn't really the same as the Judaism today.

That's where we run into a problem of when does one reach a form that is fit to be this or that. Certainly Ahura Mazda had been around for a time (there are, I believe, mentions of him in the inscriptions of Sargon of Akkad), but yes, there is some difficulty in establishing a date of when this or that religion starts. But being that the religion of pre-Zoroastrian Persia was similar to that of Vedic India, it could be said that much of this is a matter of saying when one starts. The point of contention I guess, is when is Judaism became Judaism and when Old Persian religion became "reformed", so to speak, into Zoroastrianism. But, If memory serves, Judaism was monotheistic by the time King Darius was offering protection to the partisans of Ahura Mazda.

This seems to be the argument I've been hearing as well. I'm lucky enough to have a professor who specializes in Iranian history, and took a class on Zoroastrianism with him. In class, he stated that monotheistic, "modern" Zoroastrianism as we know it was the result of Zoroastrian interactions with Europeans in the 18th and 19th century in India, where they wished to present themselves as "civilized", monotheists in contrast to the "polytheist" Hindus.

These are all interesting topics, but I fear we'd really be drifting off topic to continue.

 

[Nylaeth]

Yeah, I'm definitely excited about this update. It's been a desire of mine to bring Zoroastrianism back to Persia without resorting to extremely gamey tactics.

 

[justin6477]

A problem is that a large Rus kingdom makes it too hard to form for most, and then too easy to de jure war for the remaining land once formed, which is probably why it was split in the first place.

Not gonna lie, that was definitely not a problem that needed fixing. At the 1066 start, Rus is too easy to form; I usually see it before the 12th century begins. Granted it may be that Kingdoms in general are too easily formed insofar as gold and piety requirements.

 

[Darkgamma]

What's your source for non-Monotheistic Judaism after the appearance of Zoroastrianism? And whether it was after about 600 BC or not (which I have never heard) that's not the point; it still antedates Zoroaster regardless of any specific doctrine.

Say that Jewish monotheism likely began around 620BC (Yosiah was around thirty at this time), and we know that Zoroastrianism was practiced well before 550BC (as Darius was a Zoroastrian since birth); it's not unreasonable to see such an overlap.

Edit: an "Assara Mazās" is referred to by Assyrians around the eight century BC? The vowel length is correct, the /s/ can have shifted to /h/ and the /zd/ cluster could have simplified into /z/ upon loaning.

 

[Lord Xia]

Kind of hard to say exact dates. Zoroaster was a reformer of a much older Iranian folk religion. It didn't just spring out of nowhere, so it's not that it started with him, but it reformed with him.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Well, the tradition was the Zoroaster lived something like 280 (I think) years before Alexander. IIRC, he was considered at least partly mythical by the time of Greek interactions, etc.

Yes, this is true, but most scholars nowadays dismiss that theory and either argue Zoroaster didn't exist or that if he did he was much ealier, at least centuries earlier.

But yes this is rather off topic.I just wonder now what sort of interesting Zoroaastrian flavor events we might get. For instance, I'd like to seee some mention of the Yasna ceremony - it was important enough that it had to be performed daily; or some mention of haoma or someething like that.

 

[JJDXB]

The BBC says

The precise date of the founding of Zoroastrianism is uncertain. An approximate date of 1200-1500 BCE has been established through archaeological evidence and linguistic comparisons with the Hindu text, the Rig Veda.

Apparently, one of the Zoroastrian Holy Texts, the Gathas (attributed to Zoroaster), was originally written in Old Avestan a language which was so similar to Rigvedic Sanskrit, which was the oldest form of Vedic Sanksrit (which was in use from ~2500 to ~500BCE), that they couldn't have been written more than a few centuries apart.

In any case, this has been the Dev Diary I have been waiting for since the beginning. So excited :wub:

 

[nalivayko]

The bible hints that at one time the Hebrews had a religion much like what is described in the Enuma Elish. In Genesis God is even called "the Dragon-slayer" at one point much like Marduk when he slew the water dragon Tiamat. Or God went off to join a British metal band...could be one or the other...

There's more than hinting. I'll give it a shot:

Exodus 12:12

On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord.

There you have it, on God's authority, that there are more gods than just one. If "He" believes it, so do Jews, no?

To add to the pile, Exodus 15:11, 18:11. All three clearly show that in the beginning Yahwe was just the first among many for Jews.