[The Resistance] Game 5

[jpr123]

Yep, there were some strange moves by resistance players. Although I was quite confident that explicitly stating 'Use your KACEOY cards on me!' would have the result that neither used them on me

But I was hoping to spread a bit more confusion and get most of the resistance to believe Marty and Cliges were spies... I still don't know why they were believed over me. I thought my arguments were far more convincing

 

[Xarkan]

Yep, there were some strange moves by resistance players. Although I was quite confident that explicitly stating 'Use your KACEOY cards on me!' would have the result that neither used them on me

But I was hoping to spread a bit more confusion and get most of the resistance to believe Marty and Cliges were spies... I still don't know why they were believed over me. I thought my arguments were far more convincing

For me, I was looking at the rejected teams, and the rejections just lined up better for a JT* team based on the other info.

 

[Xarkan]

To be honest Xarkan, it really was a choice between either Marty/Cliges as spies and TNT/JPR as spies at this point. So 2/3 was pretty much a given.

Yeah that's a good point.

 

[Falc]

So, Citizen, TNT and jpr, from what was just said.

Let us ponder the lessons to be learned...

 

[Falc]

If I may ask, why didn't everyone of you change their votes after TNT approved the team? I thought that was allowed, and if I was in the resistance I would have wanted to do that. Did we make a rule about vote changing at some point?

But what if that was what you were expecting us to do???!!!

 

[Cliges]

Well, you should have picked me for the team. :sad:

Congratulations to the winners.

I was afraid for a time that I had read the PM from tamius about Cymsdale's role incorrectly, but that seems to have not been the case.

 

[Cliges]

Looks like Glio did us a favor then by killing that team, I had chickened out and set my pre-load to support cause of that KACEOY card. I thought if I had gotten scanned the game would have been over, since that cleared the other lot of players.

I barely did anything during this game cause I had just failed being a spy the game before, and I didn't have the motivation and time to try something complex again. After the first few days of that I kind of lost track about who had done what, catching up with the thread became a chore in itself kind of. I attempted to make an acceptable team when I could, in the hope that Jaypee would then have all the cards and do something masterful with them, but that team failed to be approved. Honestly I feel my fellow spies did most of the heavy lifting on this win.

If I may ask, why didn't everyone of you change their votes after TNT approved the team? I thought that was allowed, and if I was in the resistance I would have wanted to do that. Did we make a rule about vote changing at some point?

I liked the self-licking ice cream cone of trustworthiness. That was the highlight of the game for me.

 

[tamius23]

I was afraid for a time that I had read the PM from tamius about Cymsdale's role incorrectly, but that seems to have not been the case.

This one?

Spoiler

================================================================================
From : tamius23
To : Cliges
Date : 2013-05-06 14:03
Title : Open Up card
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cymsdale is a member of the Resistance.

================================================================================

And to confirm, the spies were jpr, TNT, and Citizen.

 

[marty99]

@Marty - I really don't get why you were so adamant about glio being a spy this game. He showed a lot of "clueless villager" signs all throughout the game.
No spy would have been that good at acting incompetent

That's not an argument against glio being a spy. TNT also showed a lot of clueless villager signs, as did jpr. They all repeatedly made moves which made so sense whatsoever from a resistance perspective. TNT approving a team despite 'knowing' there was a spy on it. Jpr proposing an awful team before asking anyone's advice, glio's no confidencing a perfectly set-up team, which would out any spy who tried to sabotage, they all seemed equally suspicious to me.
Besides, no-one else seemed to have noticed how he was acting. No one picked up on it at all so I thought maybe he was being subtle and I just had the fortune to see things in the right light by chance.

But I was hoping to spread a bit more confusion and get most of the resistance to believe Marty and Cliges were spies... I still don't know why they were believed over me. I thought my arguments were far more convincing

Me and Cliges had the backing of actual facts. But you still did win the argument, I thought. Cymsdale was 100% certain me and Cliges were the spies - he never put forward his reasoning, but he was convinced somehow. I wasn't able to get a team of me, cliges, cymsdale and xarkan. Instead, I had to go for the compromise team we went for, which lost.
But I don't think anyone actually read many of our posts anyway, to be fair. I wasted a colossal amount of time on this game writing analyses that people just didn't bother, or didn't have the time, to read.


Anyway, back to a far earlier point in the game...
Why did my 'offer' make me a spy, again? The one where I wanted to make an agreement with glio not to use his NC card, and get a team of me, cliges, cymsdale and xarkan proposed? I mean seriously, what was actually wrong with that proposal?

 

[Cliges]

I assumed that Cymsdale was pretending to think that we were Spies to see how others would react. That's why I never bothered much to argue otherwise.

 

[Trinitrotoluen]

Yes.

I'd like to thank glio and marty for making my life so much easier. Getting everyone fixated on glio as my packmate and the glio/marty controversy certainly was a good idea. Originally I had wanted to wait a bit before making any spy-ish move but being chosen for the first mission kinda killed that plan. I had to think over for a while if I wanted to sabotage or not, but as the second mission would have featured the exact same line-uip I didn't want to give the resistance a free pass.

 

[randakar]

That's not an argument against glio being a spy. TNT also showed a lot of clueless villager signs, as did jpr. They all repeatedly made moves which made so sense whatsoever from a resistance perspective. TNT approving a team despite 'knowing' there was a spy on it. Jpr proposing an awful team before asking anyone's advice, glio's no confidencing a perfectly set-up team, which would out any spy who tried to sabotage, they all seemed equally suspicious to me.

There's a difference between "that move makes no sense for a resistance player" and "that player is displaying signs of rampant paranoia instigated by Falc (whom,to be fair, was displaying the same signs to a lesser degree), which is probably why he's now NC'ing a proposal simply because he doesn't trust a word you say"
Yes, from *your* perspective that move made no sense, because, you know, logic. However, for someone who doesn't actually follow the logic and only sees walls of text from someone who is known to be adept at manipulating people ..
well, from *that* perspective, his move made perfect sense ;-)

Besides, no-one else seemed to have noticed how he was acting. No one picked up on it at all so I thought maybe he was being subtle and I just had the fortune to see things in the right light by chance.

Nobody "noticed how he was acting" because your own conclusions regarding his behaviour were, to put it plainly, not true.
Obviously

Me and Cliges had the backing of actual facts. But you still did win the argument, I thought.

You were too busy winning the argument to notice you were losing (part of) your audience.
To people like glio your posts there would basically have looked like "bla bla bla, look I can prove I am right and you can't lose, trust me!". Simply because the argument was *not* simple to follow.
Being correct is irrelevant if other people don't understand what you're saying.

But I don't think anyone actually read many of our posts anyway, to be fair. I wasted a colossal amount of time on this game writing analyses that people just didn't bother, or didn't have the time, to read.

Yep.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure I would have fallen in the same trap.

Anyway, back to a far earlier point in the game...
Why did my 'offer' make me a spy, again? The one where I wanted to make an agreement with glio not to use his NC card, and get a team of me, cliges, cymsdale and xarkan proposed? I mean seriously, what was actually wrong with that proposal?

Nothing. Except that you were pushing it too hard, sounded too sure of yourself, and was discussing it in terms of absolutes and certainties, rather than "might work".
It didn't matter that you were right, really.

 

[Falc]

You were too busy winning the argument to notice you were losing (part of) your audience.
To people like glio your posts there would basically have looked like "bla bla bla, look I can prove I am right and you can't lose, trust me!". Simply because the argument was *not* simple to follow.
Being correct is irrelevant if other people don't understand what you're saying.

This, basically. I pretty much went into TL/DR mode on most of Marty's posts.

Plus, Marty was acting a whole lot like he was in game 3, and whether he likes it or not, that gave me a bloody good reason to not trust him.

 

[randakar]

Plus, Marty was acting a whole lot like he was in game 3, and whether he likes it or not, that gave me a bloody good reason to not trust him.

The paranoia is understandable but .. the thing is that marty will often post walls of text irregardless of role. The only way to know which is which is by verifying what he says, carefully.
Something that is impossible if you don't read his posts.
And since your paranoia then caused glio to echo the sentiment, you can say that this is what lost the resistance the game. Without glio's NC this game would have looked quite a lot differently in the end.

 

[unmerged(281782)]

Well, is someone accepted my team, the game would have looked quite a lot differently as well.

 

[randakar]

We couldn't do that you forgot to put spies in your team.

:rofl:

Well, is someone accepted my team, the game would have looked quite a lot differently as well.

.. and since both the spies and a lot of the non-spies (marty, cliges, cymsdale) were against it for understandable reasons .. it really didn't stand a chance.

 

[Trinitrotoluen]

Hey, I did approve it. To be fair, I only did that to make sure it would be rejected by marty & co.

 

[Cymsdale]

I assumed that Cymsdale was pretending to think that we were Spies to see how others would react. That's why I never bothered much to argue otherwise.

That's kinda half right. I considered it a possibility that you could be. The fact is I was going to approve whatever team Xarkan deduced out because I believed fully he was resistance and I think resistance only wins if they have consensus.

You were too busy winning the argument to notice you were losing (part of) your audience.
To people like glio your posts there would basically have looked like "bla bla bla, look I can prove I am right and you can't lose, trust me!". Simply because the argument was *not* simple to follow.
Being correct is irrelevant if other people don't understand what you're saying.

And oh god this. I love analysis, but the amount you post it's just easier to assume you're trying to confuse things (which you did the last game you were a spy).

Bullet points Marty. Bullet points.

 

[unmerged(281782)]

.. and since both the spies and a lot of the non-spies (marty, cliges, cymsdale) were against it for understandable reasons .. it really didn't stand a chance.

Actually, I still don't understand those reasons.

 

[Falc]

The paranoia is understandable but .. the thing is that marty will often post walls of text irregardless of role. The only way to know which is which is by verifying what he says, carefully.
Something that is impossible if you don't read his posts.

Often, perhaps, but last game he didn't.

So here, my evidence was: game 3 Spy Marty posted a lot. Game 4 Resistance Marty posted little. Game 5 Marty posted a lot.

Now, okay, he had little to go on game 4 so I wasn't completely certain. But the tone remained the same: immediately convinced someone was a Spy (I'm talking glio, not TNT), trying to lead the rest of the game simply by repeating the same accusations over and over, denying us information by insisiting his suspects shouldn't be allowed to hand out cards, ...