• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
It's Tuesday and time for another dev diary on the latest expansion for Crusader Kings II; Sons of Abraham. The topics of the day are pilgrimages, Judaism and religious events. First off though, for those who read last week's diary, we've changed how the Ash'ari and Mu'tazilite traits are handled a bit. They are now much more significant, because an Ash'ari no longer gives decadence to his dynasty, and the Learning bonus for Mutazilites is correspondingly higher (currently +5).

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Start_of_Pilgrimage.jpg

Right, so, on the subject of Islam, one thing we were quite happy with in Sword of Islam was the addition of the decision to go on the Hajj, with the little adventure and the special trait you got at the end. Naturally, a lot of people thought we should add a similar thing for Christians, so that is exactly what we have done in Sons of Abraham. Christians get to choose between several different holy places. For example, Catholics can go to Canterbury, Santiago, Cologne, Rome or Jerusalem. During the journey, a regent will be appointed for pilgrim rulers and various adventures will unfold. Going on a pilgrimage costs a bit of money, and there are of course risks, but successful pilgrims will enjoy monthly piety and respect from their brothers and sisters of the faith for the rest of their lives. There could also be some unexpected benefits...

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Pilgrim_Adventure.jpg

In the same vein, we have added tons of events dealing with religious life, for Christians especially. Some are complex event chains (for example, there is one inspired by Joan of Arc) and others are simple (e.g. monks cure your illness.) There are events about relics, immoral priests (of most religions), the crusades, etc.

However, the feature in Sons of Abraham that appears to have garnered the most attention is probably the addition of the Jewish religion. Prior to the addition of the 867 start date in The Old Gods, adding Judaism to the game seemed relatively pointless due to the lack of significant Jewish rulers. In 867 though, there is indeed a powerful Jewish state; the Turkic Khazar Khaganate, which we previously represented as being of the Tengri faith, but which was historically well into the process of converting to Judaism at the time. (I think it is plausible enough that they did this in order to counteract foreign interference justified by Muslim and Christian proselytizing. Furthermore, it can be very beneficial for an empire to have a religion of its own as a vehicle for cultural cohesion and dominance.) Now, playing as the Khazars is not easy even in 867, due mostly to their powerful and aggressive neighbors, like the Pechenegs and the Cumans, but there is also a real risk of religious internal strife. In other words, it's a worthy challenge, like playing as the Zoroastrian House of Karen.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Rabbi_at_Work.jpg

Of course, there is an even tougher challenge available, even for those who do not have The Old Gods; one last Jewish Khazar duke is still clinging on in the Saray region in 1066, vassal to the Cumans. Now, Jewish players have similar goals to strive for as the Zoroastrians; you can try to restore the ancient united kingdom of Israel and Judah, restore the High Priesthood under the Kohen Gadol, and even rebuild the Temple.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_The_Last_Khazars.jpg

Apart from the Khazar Jews, there are also the Ashkenazim and Sephardim, in the form of learned men and courtiers who can show up in your court. If you run out of money as a non-Jewish ruler, you can also choose to borrow money from Jewish merchants. If you do not want to pay them back, you can actually expel the Jews from the realm (similar to what you can do with the Holy Orders.) You will, however, stop getting the benefits of having remarkably skilled Jewish courtiers to serve in your council, and you and your descendants cannot borrow any more money from their community. Obviously, this is a pretty terrible thing to do, but it does, unfortunately, have several historical precedents.

CKII_SoA_DD_03_Jewish_Decisions.jpg

I believe that about sums up the features of this little expansion. Next week I'll go through all the stuff we're giving you for free!
 
Maybe Jews should simply be made less prepared to convert.
 
Maybe Jews should simply be made less prepared to convert.

Why ? Didn't they usually convert for example in spain ?
I currently forgot, but i believe that jews could only stay jews as concillors in most christian courts much later around the end of the game or rather after that.

OR maybe Tolerance technic should have some impact for a start.

That could work, you know preventing conversion at some point in tolerance level.
Well or such....just a thought.
 
I think many of them hid the fact that they remained Jews. I don't think Paradox will do that (allow for pretending to be another religion) this time around, so you should at least be limited in demanding conversion, or demand conversion should have a chance for someone to decline and leave your court.
 
I think many of them hid the fact that they remained Jews. I don't think Paradox will do that (allow for pretending to be another religion) this time around, so you should at least be limited in demanding conversion, or demand conversion should have a chance for someone to decline and leave your court.

But curently we can only demand it, if it will be accepted anyway, so there would be the need for quite an overhaul of it. Doubt they'll do that.
Well why should the mechanic be changed just because jews enter the arena, though a little addition to the mechanic permitting religious differences despite good relations or making it harder the more tolerant you are as i said could work.
The more i think about it.....seems to make sense somehow.
 
Nice work! I'm wondering a couple of things about the Jews, though. First, the King of Israel who rebuilds the Temple is, technically, the Messiah

This is not exactly true, there's plenty of Orthodox talk about the Third Temple being built in the Messianic age, but nothing about the person who does it being the Messiah. And then there's a lot of other views which I'm not gonna bother typing out because we'd be here forever.

Since they did say you can restore the Kohein Gadol, I'm going to imagine it might keep track of Cohens and Levis in the same way it does whatever it does for Muslims.
 
Why ? Didn't they usually convert for example in spain ?
I currently forgot, but i believe that jews could only stay jews as concillors in most christian courts much later around the end of the game or rather after that.

OR maybe Tolerance technic should have some impact for a start.

That could work, you know preventing conversion at some point in tolerance level.
Well or such....just a thought.

As mainly people have said these were "Fake conversions". And it was so common it has a name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Judaism

But I don't think the game has any real way of modelling that or could even be modded in easily.
 
So how does the whole Judaism thing work, can Jews lend money to Jews?
 
Maybe Jews should simply be made less prepared to convert.

Or maybe they should just make people in general less prepared to convert. They will have the same problem with heresies. And their new mechanic of people in your court converting others would be rather pointless, because it is comically easy.

Also Jews are hardly unique little snowflakes in the fake conversion game. Muslims, Catholics & pagans all feature their stories of people secretly holding to their old faith while professing the new.
 
Nah you didn't.

Then I explained it in a different thread, either way its somewhere. Basically Jews can lend to other Jews, but mainly interest is forbidden. However, there are a number of Talmudic was around this, and secured loans were allowed such as "I give you this money, and I hold on to this Sheep right here until I get it back"
 
Then I explained it in a different thread, either way its somewhere. Basically Jews can lend to other Jews, but mainly interest is forbidden. However, there are a number of Talmudic was around this, and secured loans were allowed such as "I give you this money, and I hold on to this Sheep right here until I get it back"

I know about the whole theology around money lending, what I was wondering if anything was said about Jews lending to Jews in CK2.
 
I am somewhat curious if conquest of Jerusalem will be possible without conquering all the lands on the way to the Jerusalem. Jerusalem spanning to the Itil would be ugly.
 
I know about the whole theology around money lending, what I was wondering if anything was said about Jews lending to Jews in CK2.

Protip: Developers have a set of special avatars.

Protip 2: The developers on this forum are doomdark, goosecreature, and groogy (although johan/balor also posts info occasionally).

Protip 3: Search function is your friend.

But to save you time - outside of the dev diary posts themselves, dev comments have been minimal & no, that hasn't been among them. It is also something you can ascertain within 5 seconds of getting the DLC.
 
I am somewhat curious if conquest of Jerusalem will be possible without conquering all the lands on the way to the Jerusalem. Jerusalem spanning to the Itil would be ugly.

Wouldn't look too ugly, I think, it'd just look like Tigranes' ancient Armenian kingdom, only bigger.
 
I am somewhat curious if conquest of Jerusalem will be possible without conquering all the lands on the way to the Jerusalem. Jerusalem spanning to the Itil would be ugly.

You could always give the north to a cousin?
 
Rome isn't in the West and isn't a safe place to go? :huh:

It depends on where you are. If you live in Amalfi Rome is close, but if you live in Scotland it's a long journey. :)