Why is there no morning peak

[unmerged(251348)]

After many many hours of play with a timelevel of 20% i pointed out that there is only a very little morning peak. Even saturday afternoon therer is more traffic than between 8-9 am on mondays. Why is it so? And did anybody erxplored the exact morning peak? When do the Cims leave their home. I think it is betwenn 8.30 and 9.30. I just want do adopt the timetable optimal to the demand.

I normaly have following timetabel:

mo-fr (runs per hour)
1-6: 1 run per hour
6-8: 3
8-10: 6
10-15: 3
15-20: 6 (on some lines beginns earlier)
20-1: 3 t

How do you handle the different peaks?
Regarding your answers...

 

[Norfolk_Chris]

This question has been asked many times before.
CO have never given a convincing answer so far! :sad:
Perhaps they will this time? :rofl:

 

[pyndec]

I found that among white collar and blue collar workers, there does seem to be a morning rush. However, this is masked by the numerous tourists, pensioners, and students who start coming out of their homes right after the "morning rush". I wonder if having more workers in the city would change this.

 

[kensternation]

There is no morning peak for the same reason there is no evening peak. I have CiMs using my lines all day and all night. Late night there seems to be some lowering of usage but still much higher than you would expect. This ALL goes back to pathfinding. Not only did CO use some ridiculous formula that they claim works to their satisfaction (though not their customers') but they also seem to disregard the clock as well. I believe all of the CiMs are calculating routes all day long even while they are sleeping. Then they just randomly get up leave home and go on the road.

 

[jasiekzar]

There is no morning peak for the same reason there is no evening peak. I have CiMs using my lines all day and all night. Late night there seems to be some lowering of usage but still much higher than you would expect. This ALL goes back to pathfinding. Not only did CO use some ridiculous formula that they claim works to their satisfaction (though not their customers') but they also seem to disregard the clock as well. I believe all of the CiMs are calculating routes all day long even while they are sleeping. Then they just randomly get up leave home and go on the road.

In my view, this is not entirely true. Firstly, if you slow down the time using the ruleset editor to, say, 15-20% a pattern of public transport usability can be found, although it does not precisely resemble the one in reality. With this ruleset I have observed that:
MO-THU - 3 - 8 = low usage, 9-14 = moderate usage 15-22 = high usage, 22 - 2 = moderate usage
FRI - 3 - 8 = low usage, 9-14 = moderate usage 15-1AM = high usage, 2AM - 3AM = moderate usage
SAT 4 - 10 = low usage, 11-1AM =high usage, 2AM - 3AM = moderate usage
SUN 4 - 10 = low usage, 11-22 =high usage, 22 - 2 = moderate usage.

Remember that this only works when time is tweaked to 15-20%. I would also recommend forcing CIMS to make more rational pathfinding decisions by tweaking the quality of vehicles to 300% (so that all the vehicles have 100% quality and thus CIMs don't take this issue into consideration when choosing the path) and building the network in a way which does not allow them to make too much irrational choices (more in the thread: a short guide to improving CIMs pathfinding).

 

[jasiekzar]

Here is the thread: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ving-cims-pathfinding-based-on-my-experiences

 

[Norfolk_Chris]

Here is the post: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ving-cims-pathfinding-based-on-my-experiences

I note that CO did not reply to your previous thread.
It would be nice if they would make comment now?

 

[C40LFR]

Set to 20% time in rule set. Morning rush usually starts between 9 and 10, then stops at around 11. Evenings however 2pm to 10pm is crushing. On 200-300% population The crushing loads make even grade separated light rail(for Europeans on the forum, this means trams with elevated or underground stations) just about useless.

 

[Norfolk_Chris]

Set to 20% time in rule set. Morning rush usually starts between 9 and 10, then stops at around 11. Evenings however 2pm to 10pm is crushing. On 200-300% population The crushing loads make even grade separated light rail(for Europeans on the forum, this means trams with elevated or underground stations) just about useless.

I run my cites at 20% time speed, and between 300-400% population (depending on city size).
I have found that the rush hours work as described in your post, the morning rush is very weak compared with afternoon/evening. There may be a slight reduction in traffic on Sundays?
The car factor on the maps must be no more than 75 (100% in rule-set) otherwise the city roads will become gridlocked!
At these settings only metro lines can cope with traffic on the main traffic arteries. I feed these with segregated light rail lines where traffic is heaviest with buses relegated to low density areas.
I have tried monorails, and as I predicted they are a useless wast of space! (Do not buy them if haven't already.)
At these traffic levels, even if you keep fares low (leave the initial setting unchanged), the income generated will be so huge that it's pointless to run in any other mode except 'unlimited money'.

 

[kensternation]

This question has been asked many times before.
CO have never given a convincing answer so far! :sad:
Perhaps they will this time? :rofl:

Actually their response is CiM intelligence and pathfinding are running optimally. This despite the fact that the number one complaint since the game was released is pathfinding.

 

[kensternation]

In my view, this is not entirely true. Firstly, if you slow down the time using the ruleset editor to, say, 15-20% a pattern of public transport usability can be found, although it does not precisely resemble the one in reality. With this ruleset I have observed that:
MO-THU - 3 - 8 = low usage, 9-14 = moderate usage 15-22 = high usage, 22 - 2 = moderate usage
FRI - 3 - 8 = low usage, 9-14 = moderate usage 15-1AM = high usage, 2AM - 3AM = moderate usage
SAT 4 - 10 = low usage, 11-1AM =high usage, 2AM - 3AM = moderate usage
SUN 4 - 10 = low usage, 11-22 =high usage, 22 - 2 = moderate usage.

Remember that this only works when time is tweaked to 15-20%. I would also recommend forcing CIMS to make more rational pathfinding decisions by tweaking the quality of vehicles to 300% (so that all the vehicles have 100% quality and thus CIMs don't take this issue into consideration when choosing the path) and building the network in a way which does not allow them to make too much irrational choices (more in the thread: a short guide to improving CIMs pathfinding).

First, it seems most of us have found that there is a relatively flat distribution of CiMs moving throughout the day with daylight hours being a little higher than the middle od the night. I use 20% time and find my vehicles pretty consistently packed to the same degree at any time of day. I do not change my schedule to have less vehicles in the middle of the night and make money even at 2:00 in the morning.

Second and just as importantly, why do I have to force my CiMs to act rationally? Any city you go to has overlapping routes. Most cities have night and weekend only routes. We should be able to have the same thing in this game. "Contend with day/night cycles." That is a direct quote from the home page of the game http://www.citiesinmotion2.com/. I should not have to force the CiMs to act intelligently. I want to play a game where my schedule, however I planned my network, matters. Right now scheduling does not matter and that ruins a significant portion of the game for me and it would appear other people also do not like it.

 

[jasiekzar]

First, it seems most of us have found that there is a relatively flat distribution of CiMs moving throughout the day with daylight hours being a little higher than the middle od the night. I use 20% time and find my vehicles pretty consistently packed to the same degree at any time of day. I do not change my schedule to have less vehicles in the middle of the night and make money even at 2:00 in the morning. .

That's weird, when I play with 20% time setting, the usage is always much smaller during the night (usually 3-4 to 7-8) than during daytime and greatly larger during rush hours. Here is the screenshot (sorry for the quality, steam screenshots don't contain interface so I had to use phone), but it's saturday, so the rush hours start earlier, the thickest grid line is midnight:



I don't know why you have so many passengers during the night...

Second and just as importantly, why do I have to force my CiMs to act rationally? Any city you go to has overlapping routes. Most cities have night and weekend only routes. We should be able to have the same thing in this game.

I agree with you entirely. I would so much like to make night and weekend lines and shared routes. I would so much like not to have to take care of every stop placement so it doesn't overlap and CIMs make stupid changes. And I've seen you actively campaigning for it, I recall you even prompted CO to close one thread when fighting for this cause. But they are deaf to our comments (or "they'll look into it..."), so I'm trying to squeeze as much fun from this game as I can; if it means resign from shared routes and be careful with the stops so be it. And when I do that CIMs actually get home faster and sleep at night (well at least from 3 to 8). The statistics I put above were like this on Pittsburg, Reeve Delta, Bravil, Carlton, and Altea. I have never tried the biggest cities though.

 

[Steph3k]

Second and just as importantly, why do I have to force my CiMs to act rationally?

This is what the entire game is about and I really love it! Ok, CIM's are not normal people, but some kind of strange beings - they have the power of teleportation, but they really enjoy travelling. It even seems to be some kind of drug for them, because each CIM can spend all day and night only for traveling (changing line each stop, leaving metro for tram and backward, tripping longest possible route...) instead of just teleport to the point of destination. So, what is our aim? To give them what they want, but in rational size. And when You know all about CIMs behavior, You may to try force them to do what YOU want, not what THEY want. I know, it sounds 'slightly' autocratic, but what can we do if CIMs really don't know what is best for them? And they tend to overdose their favourite narcotic - city traffic?

That is what makes the game so enjoyable and I'm all for it! It's much better than just spamming around the city whith random stops and looking just how the citizens choose the best connection. Careful planning of stops placement, proper connections between them with adequate vehicles gives so much fun! It's amazing, that each time You establish a line, You should think about it as a part of a greater system, that should serve well and not collide with future lines. So if I can, I want to tell to all Colossal Order: I love the game the way it is and please, don't change it!

Yes, friends, now You can kill me

 

[co_martsu]

This is what the entire game is about and I really love it! Ok, CIM's are not normal people, but some kind of strange beings - they have the power of teleportation, but they really enjoy travelling. It even seems to be some kind of drug for them, because each CIM can spend all day and night only for traveling (changing line each stop, leaving metro for tram and backward, tripping longest possible route...) instead of just teleport to the point of destination. So, what is our aim? To give them what they want, but in rational size. And when You know all about CIMs behavior, You may to try force them to do what YOU want, not what THEY want. I know, it sounds 'slightly' autocratic, but what can we do if CIMs really don't know what is best for them? And they tend to overdose their favourite narcotic - city traffic?

That is what makes the game so enjoyable and I'm all for it! It's much better than just spamming around the city whith random stops and looking just how the citizens choose the best connection. Careful planning of stops placement, proper connections between them with adequate vehicles gives so much fun! It's amazing, that each time You establish a line, You should think about it as a part of a greater system, that should serve well and not collide with future lines. So if I can, I want to tell to all Colossal Order: I love the game the way it is and please, don't change it!

Yes, friends, now You can kill me

Dear Steph3k, you have just made my day Thank you!

 

[Steph3k]

I'm glad I'm sure that the game needs defence. Complaining minority is, unfortunately, much louder than those, who play and enjoy CIM2. Those, who appreciate, that the game is a compromice between simulation and replayability, and those, who understand HOW and WHY all the underappreciated concepts work. I'm affraid, that lot of potential CIM-fans, after visiting the forum, would not try this brilliant game, because all they get is just complaining. So, maybe my opinion here is just a little ray of light, that You, CO, deserved. Greets! And sorry for offtop ;p

 

[Sotrax]

Nah, me for example, I LOVE this game, really. But I find opportunities for improvement like everywhere. Not, because it's bad, no, just to make it BETTER.
We have a saying here in Berlin: "The greatest praise that you can get from a Berliner is 'There is nothing to complain about.'"

 

[Steph3k]

Well said, Sotrax! So let me precise, that I'm not a blind fanboy (well, maybe a little... ) and I also have a wishlist for CIM2. But constant complaining about "paralell routes" or "night only routes" weakens me! People should undestand, that not only possibilities create the great game, but also restrictions!

Currently it's necessary to consider every one route and every stop placement in the context of all system. Once i load new map, I rotate it, zoom in/out, planing the whole idea BEFORE i place first depot and it takes me sometimes longer, than trip across the whole town When we get the possibility of creating paralell routes, it will decrease the value of single line. Careful planning wouldn't be so necessary, if we could just place new stops close to another and just connect them without consideration of influencing nearby routes. To assume: in the current shape the game is much more strategic and gives much more satisfaction from creating well working public transport. And I hope, that this aspect of CIM will never change

 

[jmr00]

Well said, Sotrax! So let me precise, that I'm not a blind fanboy (well, maybe a little... ) and I also have a wishlist for CIM2. But constant complaining about "paralell routes" or "night only routes" weakens me! People should undestand, that not only possibilities create the great game, but also ng public transport. And I hope, that this aspect of CIM will never change

how so? Plonking down a line with no connections and running it 24/7 requires little strategy in my opinion. Meaningful connections, peak only line, merging lines at night or weekends and reducing lines when there is little demand takes a lot of tweaking and strategy.

If you want to play the game how you currently do, then no changes to the game are going to stop you from doing so. Saying that you don't want changes to the game that would greatly enhance the game for others is pretty narrow minded.

People "complain" as you say about these features because CO either don't respond to it at all or say we'll see what we can do. Frankly they generally only respond to a thread when it's praising their work (as evidenced in this very thread) rather than requests for changes which frustrates the community.

 

[Steph3k]

Are you saying it would be impossible to have this features in the game? Or it would not be great if they were implemented?

Well, because the answer for the second question is no, for the first is I don't care.

1. Parallel Routes - this feature could definitely make this game better simulation, but... better simulation doesn't always mean good and playable game. As I've said before, with current restrictions You are forced to plan Your routes very carefully and think in a holistic way. You must try to find the golden mean and to plan the whole system before you even place the first stop; usually then You build it by starting from the top (metro) and then you going down (trams, buses...). Possibility of creating shared routes would change the game idea and it would become much more particular.

2. Night/weekend only routes - well, this is also a feature that doesn't fit the current game. Now each route is something like a compromise. 'I need a tram, because during a day there is many passengers... Oh! It's 3.AM and there is less of them! What to do? I should use a trolley!' And that's what the entire game is about! About trying to establish and custom ONE, only ONE, but simply THE BEST route instead of a bush of parallel and temporary simple routes.

I definitely prefer the current style of the game. That is only my opinion, but I'm almost sure, that adding discussed features wouldn't make CIM2 more playable title

jmr00, I don't want to be impolite, but some of the complaints sounds for me like 'Why, why are there no tanks in Need for Speed series? It would be so great idea to drive T-34 against Lamborghini Diablo. Please, EA, give us tanks!!!' But defintely I agree with You, that CO should explain (like I'm trying) why they just don't want to add what community wants. They should once and for all explain the main idea of the game, because they are loosing potential customers, influenced by the forums threads.

 

[kensternation]

This is what the entire game is about and I really love it! Ok, CIM's are not normal people, but some kind of strange beings - they have the power of teleportation, but they really enjoy travelling. It even seems to be some kind of drug for them, because each CIM can spend all day and night only for traveling (changing line each stop, leaving metro for tram and backward, tripping longest possible route...) instead of just teleport to the point of destination. So, what is our aim? To give them what they want, but in rational size. And when You know all about CIMs behavior, You may to try force them to do what YOU want, not what THEY want. I know, it sounds 'slightly' autocratic, but what can we do if CIMs really don't know what is best for them? And they tend to overdose their favourite narcotic - city traffic?

That is what makes the game so enjoyable and I'm all for it! It's much better than just spamming around the city whith random stops and looking just how the citizens choose the best connection. Careful planning of stops placement, proper connections between them with adequate vehicles gives so much fun! It's amazing, that each time You establish a line, You should think about it as a part of a greater system, that should serve well and not collide with future lines. So if I can, I want to tell to all Colossal Order: I love the game the way it is and please, don't change it!

Yes, friends, now You can kill me

Bravo. Thank you for the much needed laugh. (wiping a tear from my eye.) That was awesome. favorite narcotic indeed.