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Cèsar de Quart

Forgetful troubadour
92 Badges
Jan 13, 2009
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Hi there. It's been a long time since I've walked the path of the Light, ever less and less since the Master departed into the Desert.

Anyway,I came back and I saw that Spain has two "visigothic" cultures, the Goths and the Vesi. Why are they separated and what is Vesi supposed to mean? I find it a little odd that the kingdom that got to keep the name of Gothia doesn't have Gothic culture (or Visigothic if you like).

As for the rest, this mod remains one of the coolest, most entertaining, bizarre and fun mods around. I only wish someone modded the SWMH map in it, but I know it's a lot of work, so for now I'm just glad this mod didn't die after Shaytana disappeared.
 
As for the rest, this mod remains one of the coolest, most entertaining, bizarre and fun mods around. I only wish someone modded the SWMH map in it, but I know it's a lot of work, so for now I'm just glad this mod didn't die after Shaytana disappeared.
actually, there's a different map that the mod's going to be using soon, and it's not SWMH.
(besides, SWMH would mean we focus a lot on europe. the map we'll soon be using allows us to also expand to india)
 
actually, there's a different map that the mod's going to be using soon, and it's not SWMH.
(besides, SWMH would mean we focus a lot on europe. the map we'll soon be using allows us to also expand to india)

That's great news. Is there any way to see into this map?

**

As for the Vesi culture, I see. The name's weird, since the Visigoths seem to speak a form of Latin in LI, but retain many Gothic vocabulary forms.
 
I believe it was DarkGamma who changed the name. He had an explanation posted, but I kinda forgot what it was again...

as for the beta of FG's project, it's still a WIP, so I'll just PM you the link he gave us.
 
The problem, I guess, is that there was nothing else to call them, þiudiskaz (Thiudiscas-Theodiscus) is already taken for the Teutonic culture (which I guess aren't just the Teuton tribe, but the Central Germanic peoples). I guess we could've used Gutþiuda (Gut thiuda, "Goth people"), but I don't know if LI's Visigoths are too romanized for that.
 
The problem, I guess, is that there was nothing else to call them, þiudiskaz (Thiudiscas-Theodiscus) is already taken for the Teutonic culture (which I guess aren't just the Teuton tribe, but the Central Germanic peoples). I guess we could've used Gutþiuda (Gut thiuda, "Goth people"), but I don't if LI's Visigoths are too romanized for that.

I solved it in my game by just calling the Romano-Goths "Visigothi" and the Spanish Goths "Goths". After all, Romano-Goths are Visigoths romanised, and tradition in Spain is to call the Visigoths "Godos", without the "Visi". So the Goths that romanised first would be stucked with the "Visigothi" label, and the Goths that romanised later in Spain would be the "Godos", or "Goths", period.

Another option is to take the Guthiuda premise and go one step further in romanisation: Goteudas or Gotaudas (more Spanish-ised), but I dislike this option.
 
It was me who changed it to Vesi, many moons ago.

From Wikipedia:
Contemporaneous references to the Gothic tribes use the terms "Vesi" (Latin for Visigoths), "Ostrogothi" (Latin for Ostrogoths), "Tervingi", and "Greuthungi." Most scholars have concluded that the terms "Vesi" and "Tervingi" were both used to refer to one particular tribe, while the terms "Ostrogothi" and "Greuthungi" were used to refer to another. Herwig Wolfram points out that while primary sources occasionally list all four names (as in, for example, Gruthungi, Austrogothi, Tervingi, Visi), whenever they mention two different tribes, they always refer either to "the Vesi and the Ostrogothi" or to "the Tervingi and the Greuthungi", and they never pair them up in any other combination. This conclusion is supported by Jordanes, who identified the Visigoth (Vesi) kings from Alaric I to Alaric II as the heirs of the 4th century Tervingian king Athanaric, and the Ostrogoth kings from Theoderic the Great to Theodahad as the heirs of the Greuthungi king Ermanaric. In addition, the Notitia Dignitatum equates the Vesi with the Tervingi in a reference to the years 388–391.

"Visigoths" did not come about until good ol' Cassiodorus came up with the term Visigothi as a complement to Ostrogothi, thinking it meant "west Goths" and "east Goths". It's funny you should use that particular combination, Cèsar, because Cassiodorus used the exact opposite one - "Gothi" for the Ostrogoths and "Visigothi" for the Gallo-Spanish Goths.

Among other names for the Visigoths are Visigothi, Wisigothi, Vesi, Visi, Wesi, and Wisi, all of these coming from Latin. Keep in mind that, while also having a Latin meaning, Wesi or Wisi means "good", while Ostrogothi means "Goths of the rising sun", and just know that if it were in my power to have Japanese Goths come from that, I would totally do it.

As for Spanishifying (ack, demonyms!) the language, while it is in good spirit, it's also best to keep in mind that the Spanish culture - and language - have not come about the same way they did IRL.
 
It was me who changed it to Vesi, many moons ago.

From Wikipedia:


"Visigoths" did not come about until good ol' Cassiodorus came up with the term Visigothi as a complement to Ostrogothi, thinking it meant "west Goths" and "east Goths". It's funny you should use that particular combination, Cèsar, because Cassiodorus used the exact opposite one - "Gothi" for the Ostrogoths and "Visigothi" for the Gallo-Spanish Goths.

Among other names for the Visigoths are Visigothi, Wisigothi, Vesi, Visi, Wesi, and Wisi, all of these coming from Latin. Keep in mind that, while also having a Latin meaning, Wesi or Wisi means "good", while Ostrogothi means "Goths of the rising sun", and just know that if it were in my power to have Japanese Goths come from that, I would totally do it.

I'm just saying, in the Middle Ages, from the Xth Century onwards, I've always seen the Visigoths referred to as Goths, and the Spanish March the Franks established in the Pyrinees, Navarra, Aragon and Catalonia was called the March of Gothia precisely because it was ruled mostly by local Visigothic lordlings.

On the other hand, Tervings and Greutungs are mostly the names of the ruling clans in these two branches. Which, to be honest, we know very little about before their contact with the Romans. The study of Germanic peoples nowadays has come to a sort of halt in academic circles due to the latest theories about limes permeability, frontier culture and the impossibility to know if what was traditionally considered "Germanic customs" don't actually come from Rome in their majority. Goths, the Goths of Alaric, in the end, were probably a conglomerate of Roman veterans, ethnic Goths, Alans, Huns and a buttload of other nations under the leadership of Alaric.

But I digress


As for Spanishifying (ack, demonyms!) the language, while it is in good spirit, it's also best to keep in mind that the Spanish culture - and language - have not come about the same way they did IRL.

I know Spanish doesn't exist in LI, but since the Visigoths have romanised heavily and languages like Romance Astur-Leonese and Catalan have a very thick Germanic layer brought on mostly by Goths and Franks, it makes sense that these Vesi speak something resembling Asturian, Aragonese or even Occitan (although Occitan is much closer to Late Latin in many ways than other Spanish languages).

I mean, it's still the year 1066. It bugs me a bit that the Romans are dressed up like Augustus was still kicking (I'd appreciate a more Late Roman, Belisarian-Justinian look if anything; I'll make a post someday to see if this can be adressed, because it breaks the mirror of incredulity in a game otherwise very wisely built around plausible outcomes in an implausible scenario), but things like vernacular Latin languages should have already appeared and solidify. If Catalan is in the game (which, also, is very weird considering the surroundings of the place, I'd even suggest either changing it to something more archaic or merging it with Occitan all the way), then the Visigoths should speak some form of Leonese or Aragonese, especially the Romano-Goths, which despite being more romanised would have hardly kept Latin pure. But that's the catch with the Romano-Somethings, I get that

When I devised most of the names of duchies and kingdoms in Lux Invicta's Spain (or Yspania, as I proposed, following Isidore of Seville's writing), I did so in the spirit of "Well, it's been 500 years since these Goths settled here, they can't be still speaking Gothic, which they didn't speak widely even when they first settled in Spain, so let's go for some Spanish language and keep the sonority of it while using Late Roman terminology.

***

After all that, yes, it's a tricky thing how to call the Vesi or Goths or Wisigoths, but while Visigoths and Romano-Goths was a bit dull but satisfactory, Gothi and Vesi doesn't fit the grammar of sentences ingame, or the sound of what these Goths are supposed to speak... but if no one can find better alternatives (and I think I can't), oh well. Vesi and Gothi is it.
 
I mean, it's still the year 1066. It bugs me a bit that the Romans are dressed up like Augustus was still kicking (I'd appreciate a more Late Roman, Belisarian-Justinian look if anything; I'll make a post someday to see if this can be adressed, because it breaks the mirror of incredulity in a game otherwise very wisely built around plausible outcomes in an implausible scenario)....

Yeah, I know, that was me. I found a large repository of late republican-early imperial 3d models and I just used GIMP to make them into a Roman graphical culture. Same with the Hellens really... they all dress like their fashion froze at the Diadochoi era right now just because I found a large repository of 3d models from that era and etc...
Late Roman 3d models are very difficult to come by, and I'm not a good artist, as I said, I just know the barest about GIMP, enough to copy, cut and paste the right places, let alone trying to actually draw or model something myself. I'll try to find some Late Roman models though.
 
Yeah, I know, that was me. I found a large repository of late republican-early imperial 3d models and I just used GIMP to make them into a Roman graphical culture. Same with the Hellens really... they all dress like their fashion froze at the Diadochoi era right now just because I found a large repository of 3d models from that era and etc...
Late Roman 3d models are very difficult to come by, and I'm not a good artist, as I said, I just know the barest about GIMP, enough to copy, cut and paste the right places, let alone trying to actually draw or model something myself. I'll try to find some Late Roman models though.

The Hellenic fashion looks also frozen in time, but it's fine. And the royal Roman armour looks fine, it's timeless enough. The problem I have is mostly with the High Empire Roman armour generals wear. I'll see what I can do too.

By the way, should I open a thread with the flags I've worked on?
 
By the way, Cèsar, I've been working on making the Roman marshal clothing and headgear more late Roman:
lateromangeneral.jpg

Roman Spagenhelm + Lamellar armour.

I added the shield on the back just because the empty space there made it look a bit odd.
 
By the way, Cèsar, I've been working on making the Roman marshal clothing and headgear more late Roman:
lateromangeneral.jpg

Roman Spagenhelm + Lamellar armour.

I added the shield on the back just because the empty space there made it look a bit odd.

This looks awesome. I think this is a perfect replacement for regular general wargear. The royal wargear is OK to give a vague Late Roman feeling already.