The Succession Thread

[richvh]

The world of Lux Invicta has immense variety in religion and culture, but there is one area it is sorely lacking in variety.

Succession laws.

Almost every realm uses boring old agnatic-cognatic gavelkind (the CK2 default.)

I made a baby step in remedying this a few months ago by implementing agnatic tanistry for most Irish and Scottish titles, but much more could be done. However, there is the dilemma of who gets what succession law. With this thread, I am opening up the floor to suggestions from the wider LI community. Just as a reminder, here are the succession laws available:

Gavelkind. On death, all titles are split among the eligible children, with the primary title going to the eldest.
Seniority. On death, all titles go to the eldest eligible member of the dynasty.
Primogeniture. On death, all titles go to the eldest eligible child.
Feudal Elective. On death, the de jure vassals vote for the successor from the eligible candidates.
Tanistry. On death, the de jure vassals vote for the successor from the eligible candidates of the ruling dynasty.
Ultimogeniture. On death, all titles go to the youngest eligible child.
Turkish succession. I forget the details, but I think this one has all titles going to the strongest eligible child.

Succession laws we probably don't need to consider:
Open elective. This isn't usually used for playable realms. It's mostly used for non-merchant republics, theocracies other than Catholics and Muslims, mercenaries and holy orders. Successor is chosen from eligible members of the court I think. Will not give a game over on death, but you'll be playing as a new dynasty.
Investiture. Limited to Catholic bishops. Appointment by the pope.
Patrician elective. Limited to patricians. Members of the dynasty vote among themselves on the successor.
Papal succession. Limited to the pope. Election by a college of cardinals.
Appointment. Title reverts back to the liege on death. If all your titles are appointments, then it's game over on death.

All of the above also have one of the following Gender laws:
Agnatic. Heirs must be male.
Agnatic-cognatic. Male heirs are given precedence.
Cognatic. Males and females have equal rights to inherit.
Enatic-cognatic. Female heirs are given precedence.
Enatic. Heirs must be female.

So let's hear your thoughts on who gets what succession laws.

 

[jmberry]

Agnatic Primogeniture - All non-Islamic countries in the Levant except Palmyra (the account of Jacob and Esau implies that primogeniture was the standard there), Neustria (Salic Law), various Frankish duchies not associated with the Merovings or Normans (likewise, with one exception)
Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture - Normandy, the various Saxon and Romano-British kingdoms, the non-Islamic realms in Spain, Francia, the Lombard realms in Italy
Cognatic Primogeniture - The Basques, the Palmyrenes, the Attalids, Nekor, the Cathar and Gnostic realms
Agnatic Gavelkind - The Carolingian realms, the German and Dutch realms, all Germanic and Norse Pagan countries, Kent
Agnatic-Cognatic Gavelkind - The various Welsh and Brython realms
Agnatic Seniority - Roman, Gallo-Roman, and Rhomain realms, Ethiopian realms, All Russian realms regardless of religion (this is the closest analogue to the Rota system I can find), Anjou, Non-Islamic realms in Arabia proper
Agnatic-Cognatic Seniority - Whichever Arabian realm best represents Kindah (it's been a while since I looked in that region)
Tanistry - The Irish and Scottish realms
Agnatic Elective - The Pictish realms
Turkish succession - Huns, Turks, Khazars, related cultures

These are all the ones I can think of (Islamic countries can stick with whatever their normal inheritance is)

 

[richvh]

Already set to Agnatic Tanistry:
Ireland:

• Deas-Mhumhain (Gaeilghe/Druidic)
• Eire (kingdom) (Gaeilghe/Druidic)
• Urumhain (Gaeilghe/Hibernicist)
• Osraige (Gaeilghe/Hibernicist)
• Laigin (Gall-Ghaeil/Forn Sidric)
• Cell Darach (Gaeilghe/Hibernicist)
• Breifne (Gaeilghe/Hibernicist)
• Tir Chonaill (Gall-Ghaeil/Hibernicist)
• Tir Eoghain (Gall-Ghaeil/Forn Sidric)
• Airgialla (Gall-Ghaeil/Forn Sidric)
• Rath Celtair (castle in Ulaid) (Gall-Ghaeil/Forn Sidric)

Counties in Ireland with other than Agnatic Tanistry:
Agnatic Primogenture (I thought I'd set these both to Agnatic Tanistry):

• Tuad-Mhumhain (capital of Eire) (Gaeilghe/Druidic)
• Connacht (Gaeilghe/Druidic)

Agnatic-Cognatic Gavelkind:

• Dubhlinn (Norsk/Hihbernicist)

Patrician Elective:

• Ulaid (merchant republic)

Scotland:

• Alba (kingdom) (Albannaich/Hibernicist)
• Dunbar (Albannaich/Hibernicist)
• Srath Eireann (Albannaich/Hibernicist)
• Dal Riata (kingdom) (Albannaich/Lughite)
• Srath Cluaidh (Brython/Druidic)
• Athfhotla (Pictus/Druidic)
• Caledonia (kingdom) (Pictus/Lughite)
• Buchan (Pictus/Lughite)
• Fortriu (kingdom) (Pictus/Lughite)
• Ros (Pictus/Druidic)
• Ystrad Clud (kingdom) (Brython/Druidic)

Titles in Scotland with other than Agnatic Tanistry:
Agnatic Primogeniture:

• Labdaidh (capital of Alba) (Albannaich/Hibernicist)
• Rosbroig (capital of Ystrad Clud) (Brython/Druidic)
• Airer Goidel (capital of Dal Riada) (Albannaich/Lughite)
• Moirebh (capital of Fortriu) (Pictus/Lughite)

Agnatic Gavelkind:

• Ellan Vannin (kingdom) (Norsk/Forn Sidric)
• Mann (capital of Ellan Vannin) (Norsk/Forn Sidric)
• Sudreyjar (kingdom) (Norsk/Forn Sidric)
• Innse Gall (capital of Sudreyjar) (Norsk/Forn Sidric)
• A'Charraig (Gall-Ghaeil/Forn Sidric)
• Orkney (kingdom) (Norsk/Forn Sidric)
• Orkney (jarldom) (Norsk/Forn Sidric)
• Arcaibh (capital of Orkney) (Norsk/Forn Sidric)
• Gallaibh (Norsk/Forn Sidric)

Comments/suggested adjustments?

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I assume the Visigoths and other similar barbarian remnants are not elective anymore, as they had become in the Early Middle Ages.

They should, however, have some form of seniority. Some of them at least.

 

[Kakafika]

I was surprised when I first started playing the mod when I noticed that everywhere was Gavelkind, and I think it's great that there will be more succession law diversity in the future... however, I hope this doesn't mean blobs will begin appearing earlier (brothers no longer warring for each others' titles instead of foreigners')!

Also, I used Tanistry just once, and I was surprised at how likely it was for vassals to vote for my chosen heir (usually a son). From the text, I expected it to be different from Elective in that they would more likely vote for a brother or uncle and for whomever they preferred; in practice, it played out exactly like my Elective games. Is it possible and desirable to allow vassals more leeway in choosing who they want to choose, even with, say, 75 opinion? Is it possible to put more weight on older dynasty members? My guess is this aspect of the laws is not moddable, but I figured I'd ask

Are there any succession laws that need balancing (opinion modifiers, etc.)? Maybe this can wait until we see them in action in realms all across the map o

 

[TheChronoMaster]

Think it's justifiable for any realm to have Enatic(-Cognatic) succession? Wasn't Matriarchy a thing in some ancient cultures?

 

[richvh]

I think we should leave enatic/enatic-cognatic realms to the terra incognita that will be added with Futuregary's map expansion.

 

[Sarosh]

Couldn't Palmyra have some more feminist succession law? Zenobia was, after all, a woman.

 

[futuregary]

We do need to discuss gender laws and other things involving gender while we're discussing it.

The distribution of female rulers in the ancient world is very even; I don't think we can say for certain that any culture or religion specifically allows or prohibits female rulership (with obvious few exceptions). Usually when you think of the notable queens in history (Boudicca, Catherine the Great, Nefertiti, Zenobia, Kahina, etc.), most of them are not born destined to inherit, but reach their position by a) marrying a ruler and using influence to gain control or b) resisting an oppressive, invading, or controversial force. This is not to say there are not any matriarchal societies, but rather that there are not many.

If we want to start some realms as Enatic or Enatic-Cognatic, they should probably be based on timeline references or other historical information that would justify something as uncommon as a purely-matriarchal society. I would think Kahina's lineage and Palmyra would be both Enatic-Cognatic; the only example I could even think that would make sense for True Enatic would be a tribe of Amazons, and we haven't any of those (sadly).

That being said, the default Agnatic should be changed; even in Western and mainstream societies, you've got to be really stubborn (or religious) if you refuse a female ruler under any circumstances, and Catholicism (while still the biggest religion in the game) is not as encompassing in Europe as it would need to be to have that same permeating discrimination as the norm. I think the default for titles should be switched to Agnatic-Cognatic, which would allow for realistically-distributed female rulers across the game, but still a historically-accurate frequency of male rulers. Some groups and realms should keep True Agnatic, of course; the Muslims, most notably, and probably the descendants of Roman military states (Valentia, Ancona, Salona, etc.).

When we do this, however, we have to make sure that other feminist modifiers and mechanics are working; playing as a female ruler in a world of kings is a pain in the ass when the game normally makes being a queen seen as almost as bad as being an infidel. Even your father gets an opinion penalty if they have a female heir. It's not fun to play through, so we should make sure it works right first.

OTHER TOPIC

This is more for Numahr, but I'll leave it open for discussion.

Right now, there are two feminist-based mechanics that SELIN uses (basing off of what's currently in the Matrix, not what's in development with the new religious attributes). These are female commanders and female temple holders. They both currently use the same filtering formula, which gives the option to all the religions in the Norse, Arabo-Sabaean, and Amazigh groups. However, I think these should use separate formulae.

There are several religions and sects that permit female clergy that fall outside of those groups. In Lux, any religion worshipping a female deity would also have priestesses rather than priests (except maybe Luwian, with their big Greek masculine complex, but that is for those more knowledgeable in the area to know). In African and American shamanic traditions, female shamans tend to be as common as male shamans, though they might have different roles (neither of these continental cultures are my area of expertise). In Buddhism, there doesn't seem to be much of a distinguishment in the roles of bhikkus and bhikkhunis when it comes to something like managing a temple holding. Under these various criteria, I can't think think of a formula we could use for female temple holders. Should we just leave it open-entry?

As far as commanders go; Jeanne d'Arc, Zenobia, Ahhotep (I and II), and... yeah, it's kinda the same scenario. Powerful women arise when they are needed. Also, I don't know what the SELIN entry defines, since ultimately, anyone can use the laws under the right circumstances. Does it just establish which religions get them by default? Maybe none should.

 

[DarkReborn]

Just for the record: Adding "feminist = yes" to any religion voids the female ruler and female heir penalties.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I don't know of any Arian ruler woman. But, for instance, Castille had no barring for queens, there had been several, but Aragon didn't. Later it was said that Aragon had Salian law, but Salian law is kind of fake. And there's no Visigothic queen in any record. I think the liberality of Castille regarding queens comes from their close relations and cultural ties with Navarra and the Basque country, and the fact that the first King of Castille was Sancho the Great's son, and Sancho was, first and foremost, King of Navarra.

Spoiler

Salian law does exist, it's a compliation of laws allright, but the famous part in which it says "In Salian land, women will not succeed" is just one bit of it. This was never an issue, because the House of France had always been prolific and never lacked a male heir somewhere. Never until Edward III reclaimed his right to succeed in the Frech throne, that is. Then the French showed that inheritance could not pass through women in France. But Salian land was not France, but the north-western part of Germany. It's all confusing.

Still I think it's better to keep these notions: Carolingian lands should be agnatic primogeniture, the rest, depending on precedent or "feeling". It's alt-history aftet all.

 

[crukin]

I think more religions should use the appoint heir function from Rajas of India.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

I think more religions should use the appoint heir function from Rajas of India.

I would agree, but since Lux Invicta comes with the premise that client kings and "permanent" provincial rule is commonplace since the times of Hellenistic rule after Alexander, I'd say appont must come at a price: instability, or other problems. And appointing some same dynasty enough times must cause recession into hereditary succession.