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* CKII: Charlemagne Developer Diaries will be released weekly on Wednesdays from now on up to release! *

Welcome to the Charlemagne dev diaries - and above all, welcome to the 8th century!

I'm Tobias Bodlund, scripter on the Crusader Kings II team, and in this first installment of the dev diaries for CKII: Charlemagne I will be talking about the new 769 start date and how we've chosen to represent that historical period in the game.

We've added a bunch of new cultures to the game. A few of these could arguably have been present in The Old Gods already, but going back to 769 we felt we really needed to shake up the map to properly represent the changing cultural landscape of the Early Middle Ages.

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In Spain we have the Visigoths, and they are in the Iberian rather than the Germanic group, since the Gothic migrations are long since over and they have been living in the peninsula since the early 6th century. With time, Visigothic provinces are likely to eventually become Castilian, Catalan or Andalusian depending on location and which other religious and cultural influences they are subjected to. In northwestern Iberia we also still have the Suebi, an old Germanic people. They have their own culture shift events which may see the rise of Portuguese culture.

Looking north, we have the Franks. They are still Germanic but becoming more and more latinized. You will see them slowly turning into something we call "French"...

Other new cultures you will find are Saxons, Lombards, Picts and Somali. Also, there are no Russians yet, but instead various East Slavic peoples such as the Ilmenians, Severians and Volhynians.

We've revisited cultural dynamics in some other places as well. For example, the emergence of Norman culture is now somewhat more likely than before.

Regarding religion, the old Norse religion in the game is now referred to as Germanic. We decided to do this because with the earlier start date this religion exists well beyond Norse lands (specifically, the Saxons), and the old name also sometimes caused players to confuse it with Norse culture.

Moving further south, the Ibadi faith is now its own religion and no longer a Sunni heresy.

We've also added a new pagan religion, available only in the Charlemagne start. They are the followers of the sun-god Zun, which was historically the Zunbil dynasty in Afghanistan. They start out surrounded by Muslims and Buddhists, and this should provide an interesting and possibly quite difficult start, comparable to the Jewish starts.

And where are the Jews in 769, you ask now - you will find them in Semien in Ethiopia (sometimes referred to as Beta Israel).

religion_map_persia.png

Oh, speaking of the Norse, yes... with the new start date the Viking Age hasn't begun yet. This means that the Norse will initially not be able to launch Viking expeditions overseas. This will change the early game for them as they'll need to focus more on local affairs initially. Don't worry, though, a few decades in things will start happening for them and the continent will properly learn to fear the wrath of the Northmen.

Finally, let's look at some of the large empires in the 8th century:

In 769, the Byzantine Empire is embroiled in what historians call the "First Iconoclasm". This basically means that the emperor and patriarch (and most of the elite) follow the Iconoclast faith, where religious icons are condemned as idolatry much like in Islam. There is a choice for the emperor to either stick with Iconoclasm or renounce it (via a special decision).

Meanwhile, the Abbasids are the great blob of the 8th century. During this time, they historically ruled an area from the Indus in the east to the Maghreb in the west. Though "rule" is perhaps a misleading word in some cases. To reflect the fact that in reality they had limited control over many of their nominal vassals, we have made some of these areas independent in the game. But the Caliph still has plenty of de jure CBs and claims on those areas, so beware...

In Spain, Umayyad rule is fairly recently established, so you have an Arab Muslim dynasty ruling over mainly Visigothic Christian subjects.

europe_map.png

Then there is the Frankish Empire. After Pepin died, his sons Charlemagne and Carloman inherited a kind of joint kingship over the Franks, with each of them ruling directly over a portion of the kingdom. In the game, this means the two brothers each have a king title but also a claim on the other's title. With powerful neighbors such as the Lombards, the Umayyads and the pagan Saxons, things may get very interesting here.

As you can see, the world in 769 is quite different from later starts, with many period-defining events still to unfold. Things such as the Holy Roman Empire (yes, you can found it), Vikings, Normans and Russians are still unheard of. There aren't even that many Karlings yet (!).

The 8th century is a strange and wonderful place. We hope that you'll enjoy it.
 
But mostly this people don't even were Franks... The Franks never replaced the population in modern France.

Yes they were. Do we have to go back all over again ?

I mean jesus ! They considered themselves to be Franks. Other Franks considered as such. Foreign people called them Franks. What more do you want ?

I guess you think Byzantines aren't really Roman either ?
 
Yes they were. Do we have to go back all over again ?

I mean jesus ! They considered themselves to be Franks. Other Franks considered as such. Foreign people calles them Franks. What more do you want ?
They spoke a vulgar latin with a heavy germanic influence, not a germanic language :p

Did they consider themselves franks? Yes. Were they franks? Mmm... no. The elties were gallo-roman, even if they adopted the names of the germanic upper classes.
Were Byzantines romans? Yes, because the lingua franca in the eastern part of the empire was greek, their traditions were roman and their culture was similar to that of the late roman empire. They were not a new foreign elite, but the local one that evolved, always following a "roman" way with a heavier greek influence. Furthermore, their religion was roman.

The frankish religion was germanic, not roman, until they converted because they wanted the help of the local elites.

Anyway, I have always said that the early byzantines were roman up until the XI-XII centuries. The late byzantines were not romans, but modern greeks. Cultures evolve.
 
They spoke a vulgar latin with a heavy germanic influence, not a germanic language :p

If They aren't Franks then Byzantine were never roman, Cantonese aren't true Han chinese...

People should stop confusing culture and language. THe game is not set in modern age were those are almost synonymous in europe.

Were Byzantines romans? Yes, because the lingua franca in the eastern part of the empire was greek, their traditions were roman and their culture was similar to that of the late roman empire. They were not a new foreign elite, but the local one that evolved, always following a "roman" way with a heavier greek influence. Furthermore, their religion was roman.
The frankish religion was germanic, not roman, until they converted because they wanted the help of the local elites.
Anyway, I have always said that the early byzantines were roman up until the XI-XII centuries. The late byzantines were not romans, but modern greeks. Cultures evolve.

And?

If language is a reason enough for culture then Franks should be split in three not two.

There was no culture difference between Franks except language and the split wasn't just between romance and a single german language for that matter.

Franks weren't a separate class like Lombards or Visigoth were in their time. "gallo-roman" served in the frankish army, in the church and could even be landed.

So really explain to me how Cantonese are more "Han" than gallo-roman Franks.

If unanimity is not enough for you then I can too revise history if you want.
 
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I guess you think Byzantines aren't really Roman either ?
...Kind of a bad example, since most people consider the Byzantines culturally Greek. Unless you're being ironic.
People should stop confusing culture and language. THe game is not set in modern age were those are almost synonymous in europe.
True, but language is probably the most important part of culture in CK2 since culture determines name lists, which are in turn mostly determined by language (and religion).

Take the Byzantine example. It'd be weird to have Byzantine Emperors with "Roman" names. They may have been semi-Roman in their administration, but the language is key when it comes to how cultures are labelled in the game.
 
If They aren't Franks then Byzantine were never roman, Cantonese aren't true Han chinese...

People should stop confusing culture and language. THe game is not set in modern age were those are almost synonymous in europe.
See my edit ;)
 
So the Byzantine Empire should get Roman culture and use names like Augustus, Gaius, Julius, Marcus? ;)
Many of those names were employed in the western themes until they lost them
 
See my edit ;)

Cool your edit gave reason enough for a romance culture to replace germanic franks culture with time.

Just like how you see the byzantine evolution :) .

Were Gallic Franks? Yes, because the lingua franca in the western part of the empire was latin, their traditions were germanic and their culture was similar to that of the other franks. They were not only a new foreign elite, but the local one that evolved, always following a "frankish" way with a heavier latin influence. Furthermore, their religion was roman.

:)
 
Cool your edit gave reason enough for a romance culture to replace germanic franks culture with time.

Just like how you see the byzantine evolution :) .
I don't see paradox doing that (events and immersion, in my game?! nah, just more ridicoulos, senseless, BS events like that hole in the ground chain), so I prefer the franks to be romance since the beginning.
 
I don't see paradox doing that (events and immersion, in my game?! nah, just more ridicoulos, senseless, BS events like that hole in the ground chain), so I prefer the franks to be romance since the beginning.

It's already the case. With time "French" (blergh) will replace "Frankish". :)
 
If They aren't Franks then Byzantine were never roman, Cantonese aren't true Han chinese...

People should stop confusing culture and language. THe game is not set in modern age were those are almost synonymous in europe.



And?

If language is a reason enough for culture then Franks should be split in three not two.

There was no culture difference between Franks except language and the split wasn't just between romance and a single german language for that matter.

Franks weren't a separate class like Lombards or Visigoth were in their time. "gallo-roman" served in the frankish army, in the church and could even be landed.

So really explain to me how Cantonese are more "Han" than gallo-roman Franks.

If unanimity is not enough for you then I can too revise history if you want.
Lemme see...
Culture is, usually, considered the union of things like religion, language and lore...
The "frankish" religion was roman, not germanic

The language was roman, not germanic

The cultural tradition had more to do with the roman empire (heck, they wanted to be roman emperors) than with the germanic traditions

The structure of power and administration had a lot to do with the roman one, because the franks copied/kept the romano-gallic administration
 
I don't see paradox doing that (events and immersion, in my game?! nah, just more ridicoulos, senseless, BS events like that hole in the ground chain), so I prefer the franks to be romance since the beginning.
If you watch the stream, you can see that even in the beta there are events which lead to "gaul" provinces becoming Latin culture group French if held by a Germanic Frankish character.

I think the question is just whether there should be a different, earlier, more gallo-roman latin culture in those provinces to begin with.
 
Lemme see...
Culture is, usually, considered the union of things like religion, language and lore...

The "frankish" religion was roman, not germanic

Yes

The language was roman, not germanic

Not for all franks. And splitting Franks in two sides without even aknowledging the big regional differences for both languagues is a very simplistic interpretation of the real life in the frankish realm.

Latin was however the lingua franca in the Francia. At least in Charlemagne start.

The cultural tradition had more to do with the roman empire (heck, they wanted to be roman emperors) than with the germanic traditions

Not really no. Franks were more german than Roman that's for sure and it applies for all Franks.

The structure of power and administration had a lot to do with the roman one, because the franks copied/kept the romano-gallic administration

It was inspired by rome but in reality it remained germanic. It was not comparable to the ERE or the Late Roman Empire.
 
Take the Byzantine example. It'd be weird to have Byzantine Emperors with "Roman" names. They may have been semi-Roman in their administration, but the language is key when it comes to how cultures are labelled in the game.
Ah but if you notice many do have many Latin names... spelled in Greek (-os instead of -us, k instead of c etc) because they had been adopted into Greek.
 
Ah but if you notice many do have many Latin names... spelled in Greek (-os instead of -us, k instead of c etc) because they had been adopted into Greek.
Yep, true, but I think it still counts as a different culture and a different name. Pedro is spanish/portugese Peter, Fyodor is slavic Theodore, etc... they come from the same roots, usually religious, but they're not really interchangeable.
 
I don't really understand the problem.

We have the english melting pot happening in the XIth century despite how wrong it is in reality and nobody gave it a fuss.

Seeing Henry II or John I having English culture and names no problem ? But Frankish names in France heresy somehow ??

Of course if you make the effort to understand that CK2 English culture is not modern English culture you can understand right ?
 
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They were never numerous, but they were an important minority in nowdays Belgium/Nord-pas de Calais

Actually they were a majority there IIRC (as much of the area was depopulated shortly before the Franks moved in), which is why that area spoke Dutch/Flemish throughout the Middle Ages.
 
Actually they were a majority there IIRC (as much of the area was depopulated shortly before the Franks moved in), which is why that area spoke Dutch/Flemish throughout the Middle Ages.
I know that that area was heavily populated by them, but there is no way to make sure whether they were a majority or not.
 
Is the ruler of Kiev going to start out as a chief or a high chief? It appears that both Kiev and Turov start as part of the same demense, so it really could go either way.