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The Witch-King

Lord of the Nazgul and PDS Senior Content Designer
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* CKII: Charlemagne Developer Diaries will be released weekly on Wednesdays from now on up to release! *

Welcome to the Charlemagne dev diaries - and above all, welcome to the 8th century!

I'm Tobias Bodlund, scripter on the Crusader Kings II team, and in this first installment of the dev diaries for CKII: Charlemagne I will be talking about the new 769 start date and how we've chosen to represent that historical period in the game.

We've added a bunch of new cultures to the game. A few of these could arguably have been present in The Old Gods already, but going back to 769 we felt we really needed to shake up the map to properly represent the changing cultural landscape of the Early Middle Ages.

sw_eur_cult.png

In Spain we have the Visigoths, and they are in the Iberian rather than the Germanic group, since the Gothic migrations are long since over and they have been living in the peninsula since the early 6th century. With time, Visigothic provinces are likely to eventually become Castilian, Catalan or Andalusian depending on location and which other religious and cultural influences they are subjected to. In northwestern Iberia we also still have the Suebi, an old Germanic people. They have their own culture shift events which may see the rise of Portuguese culture.

Looking north, we have the Franks. They are still Germanic but becoming more and more latinized. You will see them slowly turning into something we call "French"...

Other new cultures you will find are Saxons, Lombards, Picts and Somali. Also, there are no Russians yet, but instead various East Slavic peoples such as the Ilmenians, Severians and Volhynians.

We've revisited cultural dynamics in some other places as well. For example, the emergence of Norman culture is now somewhat more likely than before.

Regarding religion, the old Norse religion in the game is now referred to as Germanic. We decided to do this because with the earlier start date this religion exists well beyond Norse lands (specifically, the Saxons), and the old name also sometimes caused players to confuse it with Norse culture.

Moving further south, the Ibadi faith is now its own religion and no longer a Sunni heresy.

We've also added a new pagan religion, available only in the Charlemagne start. They are the followers of the sun-god Zun, which was historically the Zunbil dynasty in Afghanistan. They start out surrounded by Muslims and Buddhists, and this should provide an interesting and possibly quite difficult start, comparable to the Jewish starts.

And where are the Jews in 769, you ask now - you will find them in Semien in Ethiopia (sometimes referred to as Beta Israel).

religion_map_persia.png

Oh, speaking of the Norse, yes... with the new start date the Viking Age hasn't begun yet. This means that the Norse will initially not be able to launch Viking expeditions overseas. This will change the early game for them as they'll need to focus more on local affairs initially. Don't worry, though, a few decades in things will start happening for them and the continent will properly learn to fear the wrath of the Northmen.

Finally, let's look at some of the large empires in the 8th century:

In 769, the Byzantine Empire is embroiled in what historians call the "First Iconoclasm". This basically means that the emperor and patriarch (and most of the elite) follow the Iconoclast faith, where religious icons are condemned as idolatry much like in Islam. There is a choice for the emperor to either stick with Iconoclasm or renounce it (via a special decision).

Meanwhile, the Abbasids are the great blob of the 8th century. During this time, they historically ruled an area from the Indus in the east to the Maghreb in the west. Though "rule" is perhaps a misleading word in some cases. To reflect the fact that in reality they had limited control over many of their nominal vassals, we have made some of these areas independent in the game. But the Caliph still has plenty of de jure CBs and claims on those areas, so beware...

In Spain, Umayyad rule is fairly recently established, so you have an Arab Muslim dynasty ruling over mainly Visigothic Christian subjects.

europe_map.png

Then there is the Frankish Empire. After Pepin died, his sons Charlemagne and Carloman inherited a kind of joint kingship over the Franks, with each of them ruling directly over a portion of the kingdom. In the game, this means the two brothers each have a king title but also a claim on the other's title. With powerful neighbors such as the Lombards, the Umayyads and the pagan Saxons, things may get very interesting here.

As you can see, the world in 769 is quite different from later starts, with many period-defining events still to unfold. Things such as the Holy Roman Empire (yes, you can found it), Vikings, Normans and Russians are still unheard of. There aren't even that many Karlings yet (!).

The 8th century is a strange and wonderful place. We hope that you'll enjoy it.
 
Glad to see this Dev Diary! :)

I like others here, have a few remarks. First of all not all the Franks latinized, this happened to most of the Franks inside Neustria, but those within Austrasia remained Germanic. These Franks also need a culture shift. Germanic Frankish can roughly be split in two groups (made up of a variety of dialects), due to the fact that southern (and eastern) dialects were affected by the High German Consonant shift, but the northern (and western) dialects (Low Frankish) weren't (the ancestor of Dutch).
Still I do like how those Franks, which did latinize were handled.

@ Duarte: perhaps (seems likely to me) Suebi, like Visigothic is in the Iberian group?
So even in those provinces Frankish should probably shift to Dutch or become German.

Franks in Frisia will indeed become Dutch instead.
 
Thank you for the DD. Perhaps you can expand on the culture shifting mechanics a bit more?

I am most likely in a minority but I am concerned that the cultural shift events will railroad the player into accepting the cultural change in whatever area we are playing in. I'd really like to be able to nurse the Saxon, Lombardy, Pict, etc culture I begin with to survive into the 15th century, if I chose to do so.

The culture shift events will be situational, meaning that under some circumstances no shift at all might happen. In some areas it will be very hard or impossible to stop it, but in others you will be able to more easily change history and hang on. Saxons or Picts staying on until 1453 should be perfectly possible if you play it well and stay independent.

Character culture conversion will in most cases be a decision so you can choose.

The Iconclastic decision for the ERE ruler sounds wonderful - will this type of decision be available for other heretical rulers or is this a one-of for this special situation?

This is a unique decision for the Byzantine Emperor.

I am also aware this is a WiP but are there plans to adjust the areas under control of the various religions to reflect the reality on the ground? Others are pointing out areas of concern there, so no need to repeat them.

This DLC is not quite finished yet, so we may still tweak province religion for some areas.
 
That's not the point. The adoption of Iconoclasm permanently split the church, and began causing power struggles. As I said, they were perpetually in conflict from then on even after the restoration of orthodoxy.



Only to begin with. Again, they were still actively competing even after the restoration of Orthodoxy; the earlier adoption of iconoclasm was simply where east and west can first be seen to be distinct.



They were still one church until around Alexios' time, when the Byzantines were aware of an active schism being in place. 1054 was one of the moments often proposed thereafter for when the actual schism happened, and as it was the one Gibbon adopted (and others after him) it has become the commonly mentioned date. Hell, at the time, nobody was really aware that there was any kind of "schism" going on.

But still, simply because the schism formally happened in the 11th century, that doesn't mean the Eastern and Western churches were anything like united before that. There was still active competition for converts, supremacy and authority over sees between Pope and Patriarch dating back, well, a very long time, but particularly since 726. The conversion of the Moravians and Bulgars are good examples; we can clearly see western and eastern rites and political organisations actively competing for converts.

I agree, simply having them completely split to start with and with no co-operation isn't at all a perfect mechanic, but it's a hell of a lot better than having a single religion. I'd rather that they were split but with some kind of events/mechanics representing the nominal unity which was still in place.

This schism discussion is very interesting.

The way we've chosen to handle it in Crusader Kings II is based on what you describe, that by the time the game starts the churches were already divided and competing since a long time (you could even argue that it all started in 476 - or before that if you want to take into account the cultural impact of Greek vs Latin traditions in the Roman Empire). There are many things, such as the existence of differing church customs and rituals, the growing political power of Rome etc that clearly show that it was not one unified church at this time. Events such as the coronation of Charlemagne also illustrate the existence of a political separation, that the West did not accept Eastern authority.

The mutual excommunication of 1054 is by many historians taken to be the "official and final" date of the schism - but the division of Eastern and Western Christianity was already a fact since several centuries.

I think by 769 it's fair to guess that to the majority of Christians it appeared that they were of one faith, but church leaders and other politically aware actors of the time knew this not to be true.
 
Still a little bugged by the 'Germanic' religion thing. I do like how the game starts with the Germans and the Norse as a singular religion. When the Viking age starts they really should split into regular Germanic and Norse, working much like the Norse culture splitting event. Whilst there is the argument that the religions were the same they at least had different names for their gods and different iconography, to my knowledge the German Saxons never used the Raven Banner for example. The religions should superficially be different at-least.

That is even disregarding mechanics. A large part of Norse gameplay derives from their religion. What is this single religion method going to do? Give the Saxons Viking style raids and amphibious CBs? They carried out sea raids sure, but on nowhere near the scale or even style of the Norse.

Is it really that hard to have a Norse religion split of the Germanic one? Just have provinces and characters of any independent realm with a capital in De Jure Scandinavia switch over to Norse when the Viking Age starts. It would work mechanically and be faithful to history; what's to lose Paradox?

The Saxons were conquered before the Viking Age really got off the ground, so it's an interesting "what if" discussion to talk about what what they would have done if they had survived as an independent Pagan realm. There is of course the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain in the 5th century - but the details of it are very much hidden in the mists of time.

Anyway, in Crusader Kings 2: Charlemagne, we don't mind the Saxons raiding overseas, though the start of the Viking Age in the game will primarily give a boost to provinces with Norse culture.
 
Hold your horses!

Has there been any PDox comment so far on the alleged full Christianity of the south Slavs?

We're aware of some issues with the South Slavic religion setup as shown in the screenshots and improvements will be made to it before release (yes, this means more Pagans).
 
One thing I'm wondering about, will they populate eastern europe, scandinavia and other poorly-documented areas with legendary figures, or will it mostly be random dynasties?

Mostly random ones, but a few legendary ones, mainly in Scandinavia.
 
Okay, one question that has plagued me ever since the DLC was announced: Can we play as any of the 12 peers? Ogier the Dane Christianizing Denmark could make for a good play, I think.

Yes, Ogier will make an appearance. If you play as Charlemagne you can do things with him (maybe even make him King of Denmark), but he will not be playable.
 
Please make North Africa more Christian at AD 769. Its only been under Muslim rule for a short while at this point (less than a century), and the region had been *very* Christian, and there are plenty of historical, first-hand accounts of the Christian nature of the population throughout this time period.

Western North Africa will probably have more Christian provinces at release.
 
Question for Devs regarding current "tribal titles" like Great Moravia. Will these stay Tribal as they are without de-jure drift being possible or turn into "formable" titles with Charlemagne. So could you start a game as Great Moravia and attempt to retain it's title and nice CoA and if you manage to stick around for 100 years, get your de-jure "Great Moravia" into existence?

"Tribal titles" of the old kind won't exist anymore. This means all those titles will now be connected to the de jure mechanics. Of course, not all titles will exist at all start dates - so for example, the de jure Empire of Germania is only available in 769 (replaced by the HRE in later starts).
 
What exactly do you mean? That there wont be anymore any titles that are automatically destroyed when their holder gets same or higher tier nontribal title? Does it mean, that dejure titles will use different name and CoA if their holders are of certain culture and have tribal capitals? Because old "titular tribal titles" were great way to represent things like nomad Magyars, or Timurids, or Mongols, and many historical realms which had no set territory, and couldn't be reasonably tied to existing dejure title. Stuff like Great Moravia for example, you couldn't just use renamed Bohemia, since it would screw regnal numbers in later start dates.
Any clarifications on it, please?

Yes, no more auto-destroying tribal titles.

There will still be titular titles. And some previously tribal titles will get de jure land, while some will be merged with other local de jure-titles. Also, the de jure map may not always be the same for different start dates.

Great Moravia - as an example - will not be Bohemia, but it will also not exist de jure in every start date.