• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Welcome to the third development diary for Europa Universalis 4: El Dorado. Today, we’ll be talking about America and Liberty… and no, it’s not about the USA. Specifically, we’ll be talking about the Mesoamerican and South American Inti and Maya religions added in the expansion, and the new Liberty Desire system included in the free patch.


Maya
The Maya were divided into a large number of city-states vying for supremacy. In the past, these states were united in a large confederation called the League of Mayapan until infighting shattered the league. In El Dorado, we’ve attempted to simulate this expansion and contraction through Religious Reforms similar to the ones available to the Nahuatl (for details, see El Dorado Dev Diary 1). For a Mayan nation to pass a reform, they will need to own at least 20 provinces, have positive stability, no revolts, and no overextension. This is a little daunting.

Upon passing a reform, a Maya state will lose about half its territory, shrinking to a size of 10 core provinces determined by culture, religion and distance to capital. Other provinces will break away, joining existing nations or forming new nations and requiring you to reconquer them again. For each reform you have passed, you will be able to keep hold of more territory, retaining an extra province in addition to the original 10. As with the Nahuatl, when the last reform is passed and you border a Western nation, you will be able to reform your religion, getting a tech boost and gaining the permanent benefit of the religious reforms.

The Maya religion starts with +1 Tolerance of the True Faith and +1 Possible Advisors and their reforms give -10% Land Maintenance, -2 Global Unrest, +10% Infantry Power, +1 Colonist and -20% Core-Creation cost.


Inti
Where the Maya and Nahuatl religions are about expansion and contraction, the Inti faith is about maintaining the authority of the Sapa Inca by having the people worship him as a God. Inti nations have an Authority value that goes up from owning vast stretches of territory, and goes down when the ruler grants autonomy to a province (either from granting autonomy via by the grant autonomy action, being forced to by rebels, or choosing to do so in an event). Authority is also affected by a number of unique events added for the Inti religion. Authority reduces unrest and makes it cheaper to increase stability.

An Inti state that has 100 Authority and owns at least 10 provinces can pass a Religious Reform, but doing so will remove all their Authority and spark a civil war as a pretender exploits the loss of authority to attempt to seize the throne for themselves. After all, every reformer is challenged if they go too far.

If you lose this civil war, two Religious Reforms are lost, greatly setting back your progress towards reforming your religion.

As with the Nahuatl and Maya, when the last reform is passed and you border a Western nation, you will be able to reform your religion, getting a tech boost and gaining the permanent benefit of the religious reforms. Because the Inti religion does not have the same cycle of expansion and contraction as other two, Inti religious reforms are generally weaker than those of the Maya and the Nahuatl, but easier to accomplish.

The Inti religion starts with +1 Tolerance of the True Faith and -0.05 Monthly Autonomy in all provinces and their reforms give +10% Manpower Recovery Speed, +1 Colonist, +0.5 Yearly Legitimacy, +0.05 Land Morale and -10% Core-Creation Cost.

As the Nahuatl reforms were not finalized in DD1, I will also take the time to share them: -0.05 War Exhaustion, +1 Diplomatic Relations, +5% Discipline, +1 Colonist and -20% Stability Cost Modifier.


Liberty Desire
In Conquest of Paradise, we introduced the concept of Liberty Desire for Colonial Nations, measuring their desire to break away from their parent country, but the system has always been a bit too simplified revolving almost entirely around tariffs and very rarely resulting in said Colonial Nations winning their independence.

In the 1.10 patch, we will be introducing a major rework of Liberty Desire that turns it into a much deeper and more interesting system, but also expands it to all other subjects such as Vassals and Personal Union juniors. In 1.10, each subject has a Liberty Desire towards their Overlord, calculated based on a large number of factors such as opinion, diplomatic reputation, relative power, and relative diplomatic technology levels. Certain subject types like Marches and Client States are more loyal and thus have inherently lower Liberty Desire, while the Daimyos of Japan are an unruly bunch and have a large bonus to their LD. Vassals will also be aware of the power of all vassals relative to their liege, and their Liberty Desire will go up if they think that they could, together, bring you down. (This might even tame early game France - a little.)

While Liberty Desire is lower than 50, the subject will be considered ‘Loyal’ (as seen in their attitude). They will dutifully pay taxes, send their armies to help you in war, and refuse any offers of Support for Independence.

If Liberty Desire is above 50, but below 100, the Vassal is considered ‘Disloyal’. They will refuse to pay taxes and tariffs, won’t send their armies to help you in war (only defending their own territory) and will both look for foreign powers to support their independence and seek to ally with other rebellious subjects of their liege. If they find allies and supporters, their Liberty Desire goes up by an amount depending on the power of said supporters and allies.

At 100, the subject will be ‘Rebellious’. They will not only refuse to pay taxes and send help, but will declare war for independence the moment they think they have a shot at winning. When a subject declares war for independence, they will automatically call in all other subjects of their liege that they are allied to, and all independence supporters of both themselves AND their allies, meaning that their liege can be faced with quite the independence war indeed.

All in all, this system is meant to make vassals feel more lifelike - they are no longer mere slaves to their liege’s whims, but independent entities with their own goals who may turn on their ‘overlord’ if he does not take care to maintain their loyalty.


attachment.php


Check out all the videos for #EuropaUniversalis IV: El Dorado expansion here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqRhPbyFDQWjGgEWYgQwby-H4Lm7xrNGD
 

Attachments

  • eu4_11.png
    eu4_11.png
    2,4 MB · Views: 42.744
Last edited by a moderator:
So how do you lower liberty desire?
Well, the obvious strategies presented by the screenshots include "Improve relations with your subjects" (since there's a relations component to LD) and "get bigger yourself" (since there's a relative-power component to LD).
 
Huge thumbs up for the revamp of Liberty Desire, it was really way too easy to keep CN's in line before.
Also love the Inti religion mechanics, gotta play an Inca game as soon as I get a hold of this DLC. I'm not too thrilled abou the fact that Maya loses land when passing religious reforms, but I guess you guys know what you're doing and it's for ballance reasons to make reforming harder for them.

Most likely it's there to prevent 30-40 years were you already took everything and just colonise and tech up and build buildings occasionally.
 
Well, the obvious strategies presented by the screenshots include "Improve relations with your subjects" (since there's a relations component to LD) and "get bigger yourself" (since there's a relative-power component to LD).

this is ingame already now. If you get big enough versus your (PU) subjects, they won't ever revolt. Even a full fledged HRE that becomes your minor PU subject late game (yes, it can happen) with 500k standing army won't revolt EVER if you are even bigger and have an even larger army, so to speak.

The change to the mechanic will likely affect OPM strategies and it might disrupt my game of thrones also, since keeping big PU subjects as relative tiny country will be hard. But then again, i have never got my question answered if subjects that get their claims awarded to them by you, become less unruly.

If not, that would a very VERY unrealistic stop to vassal feeding.

"Hi mighty subject Burgundy! We have decided that as reward for your bravery in our common war versus france, we will award you all the provinces in france you had claims on"

"Oh GEEZ thanks! But nevertheless, i like you LESS now after this concession, because i got stronger!"

"Excuse me?"

"i will declare independance because you fed me France! We declare independence NOW in fact!"

:wacko:

If the mechanic will change according to this 'fun' story, it will be a really stupid change.

So i'll ask again, will feeding subjects their claims make them LESS unruly, or MORE because they grew stronger versus you?

And also, will you let subjects keep their enemies/rivals? It would make a load of sense if a subject would become pleased and less unruly if you feed them taken cores, their claims on their rivals/enemies etc.

Also, i really hope you aren't destroying my PU mechanic orientated gamestyle. In current game all greater power subjects in a PU are hostile attitude until you get +200 relation with them.

Does this new mechanic mean that after 1.10 keeping greater powers in a PU will become practically impossible if you got them using a claim throne war (which gives them ver low opinion of you, since likely they already had agressive expansion modifier versus you and whatnot)
 
Last edited:
this is ingame already now. If you get big enough versus your (PU) subjects, they won't ever revolt. Even a full fledged HRE that becomes your minor PU subject late game (yes, it can happen) with 500k standing army won't revolt EVER if you are even bigger and have an even larger army, so to speak.
Yeah, I imagine this is one of the reasons the new mechanic is being introduced...

The change to the mechanic will likely affect OPM strategies and it might disrupt my game of thrones also, since keeping big PU subjects as relative tiny country will be hard. But then again, i have never got my question answered if subjects that get their claims awarded to them by you, become less unruly.

If not, that would a very VERY unrealistic stop to vassal feeding.


So i'll ask again, will feeding subjects their claims make them LESS unruly, or MORE because they grew stronger versus you?
The most sensible thing to do here is make it so at first, the feeded subjects are grateful and more loyal. With time this decays however, especially with the involved rulers' deaths happening, until all that is left is the fact that the subject is stronger than it was before, and bolder. Feeding then becomes a short-term gain, long-term loss, as it should.


And also, will you let subjects keep their enemies/rivals? It would make a load of sense if a subject would become pleased and less unruly if you feed them taken cores, their claims on their rivals/enemies etc.
Yeah, that would be nice.

Also, i really hope you aren't destroying my PU mechanic orientated gamestyle. In current game all greater power subjects in a PU are hostile attitude until you get +200 relation with them.

Does this new mechanic mean that after 1.10 keeping greater powers in a PU will become practically impossible if you got them using a claim throne war (which gives them ver low opinion of you, since likely they already had agressive expansion modifier versus you and whatnot)

Forced vassalization producing unruly subjects, at least at first, makes a lot of sense. It should be hard to keep them if you don't have the strength to keep them in line until time passes and relations normalize.
 
You know, as we are already talking about vassals and other subjects, it would be nice to change a bit the way they colonize. Their colonies, when finished, should be given to the CN of their Overlord, to avoid multiple little CNs popping up in a single Colonial Region. Going the extra mile and making the culture of these provinces insta-accepted would also be pretty sweet.
Also giving "general directions" for them, similar to the Objectives mechanic in AoW, but for Colonization. So you could, for an example, tell a PU Portugal that you want them to colonize these provinces in Haiti instead of picking worthless provinces in Inner Brazil or generating tension with France by colonizing in North America, near their colonies.
 
If my assumptions about subject nation behavior is correct then game of thrones may become even more valuable in El Dorado.

I already have a test WC planned (probably with easy-mode Ottomans but I think I might be able to do it faster than 1654, and with no HRE mechanics involved, and the strategy should be applicable to smaller countries. And yes, I know Muslims can't get PUs but there's something about PUs quite different to vassals that makes them useful if you have a bit of setup time).
 
If my assumptions about subject nation behavior is correct then game of thrones may become even more valuable in El Dorado.

I already have a test WC planned (probably with easy-mode Ottomans but I think I might be able to do it faster than 1654, and with no HRE mechanics involved, and the strategy should be applicable to smaller countries. And yes, I know Muslims can't get PUs but there's something about PUs quite different to vassals that makes them useful if you have a bit of setup time).

care to share your assumptions? ;)

But tbh, yes, i bet the entire change will backflip on paradox, making my PU gameplay style even easier.
 
LD is based on lots of factors, the ones listed were just examples.

LIBERTY DESIRE looks really cool, Wiz! Will replace the need for some modded features, which is always good UI wise.

Top which extent will LD be moddable? In e.g. defines.lua, static_modifiers or elsewhere?
 
You know, as we are already talking about vassals and other subjects, it would be nice to change a bit the way they colonize. Their colonies, when finished, should be given to the CN of their Overlord, to avoid multiple little CNs popping up in a single Colonial Region.

Why on earth would vassals waste their money on colonies if the overlord just stole them away?
 
Welcome to the third development diary for Europa Universalis 4: El Dorado. Today, we’ll be talking about America and Liberty… and no, it’s not about the USA.
AAND I stopped reading
 
Why on earth would vassals waste their money on colonies if the overlord just stole them away?

I agree! Plus, there would probably end up being two seperate nations anyhow, because of the culture/religion difference between your vassal and the overlord. I personally don't understand the whole "bigger is better" idea in terms of CNs. I'd prefer my CNs to be multiple small states, for exactly the reason why Revoked HRE is better than Greyskin.
 
I agree! Plus, there would probably end up being two seperate nations anyhow, because of the culture/religion difference between your vassal and the overlord. I personally don't understand the whole "bigger is better" idea in terms of CNs. I'd prefer my CNs to be multiple small states, for exactly the reason why Revoked HRE is better than Greyskin.
Well in the new system, the more subject states you have the more states you need to maintain good relations with in order to keep them. Smaller numbers of (bigger) vassals means fewer diplomat missions / bribes. But then of course if they get bigger they'll become more interested in revolting. So there will probably be some type of balance to find. The most important thing will be to grow your main tag, of course, but that's not especially new.
 
So, disloyal vassals will no longer use their troops in your wars? IOW they are stuck in "supportive" mode? ;)

'Supportive' mode is where they get clingy and start following your armies around. Disloyal mode means they stay at home and take no part in the war unless their own territory is attacked by the enemy.
 
Am I the only one who thinks that when a non-catholic nation breaks the Treaty of Tordesillas, the Defender of the Catholic Faith should get a CB on him?