Welcome to another development diary about Europa Universalis IV. Today we’ll go into details about mechanics for some religions, that will become available with the next expansion.


Protestanstism
Each protestant church will have their own name in the interface, like Church of England and so on. You can then customise the benefits of your church, and also change it over time whenever you need. To change the aspect of your church, you have to spend Church Power.

Church Power is accumulated each month, depending on your current religious unity, and your monarchs abilities.

Adding an aspect to your church costs 100 church power, but you can remove an aspect at any time, but that will lower your stability by 1.

A Church can have up to 3 different aspects, and there are 12 different ones to pick from. Some of these include.

• Holy Sacraments: +2.5% Discipline
• Individual Creeds: -5% Idea Costs
• Adult Baptism: +1% Missionary Strength.

Buddhism
The Buddhist Faith gained the concept of Karma. Karma needs to be balanced, because if it goes too positive or negative, you end up with penalties. If you go too positive you end up with penalties to your diplomatic abilities, and if you go too negative, you end up with penalties to your military abilities.

However, If you keep a balanced karma, you gain bonuses to both diplomatic and military abilities.

Some examples on how you gain Karma include: Starting wars decrease Karma, while honoring defensive alliances increase Karma.

While adding the Karma mechanic and its related events it also became clear that the game setup could benefit from splitting the existing religion into Vajrayana, Mahayana and Theravada. These three religions will all use the same Karma mechanic but don't all share the same events related to it and can in some cases have different event options in the events they do share. Events related to Lamas are for instance reserved for the Vajrayana faith while only Theravada countries can turn to Ceylon for spiritual inspiration. The three religions also differ in what bonuses they provide.

Next week we will talk about about subjects and how to interact with them...

 

[IsadorBG]

Prussia would be Lutheran Protestantism because they were one of the firsts to do the switch when they still were the Teutonic Order.

The Brandeburg-Prussian dukes converted around the end of the XVIth century to Calvinism and the era of Prussian military exploit was during the time the Prussian state religion was Calvinist.

It's true that the majority of the Prussian were not Calvinist but in EU terms it's the state religion that matters and Reformed base heretic tolerence + Humanism represents well the situation in Prussia in those times.

In 1613, John Sigismund converted from Lutheranism to Calvinism, but failed to achieve the conversion of the estates by the rule of cuius regio, eius religio.[59] Thus, on 5 February 1615, he granted the Lutherans religious freedom, while the electors court remained largely Calvinist.[59] When Frederick William I rebuilt Brandenburg-Prussia's war-torn economy, he attracted settlers from all Europe, especially by offering religious asylum, most prominently by the Edict of Potsdam which attracted more than 15,000 Huguenots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg-Prussia#Religion_and_immigration

 

[superZAKTAN]

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! KREYGASM...I mean...I am very excited, this looks extremely promising. Keep up the good work...

 

[Searry]

There is still no reason for SMALL countries to be catholic, which is odd considering the HRE has many catholic theocracies.

LARGE countries can get 4+ cardinals, improve relations with the pope, and get large amounts of papal influence to stack stability, mercantilism, or in a pinch money and manpower.

Additionally I'd like to see the Curia stop being RNG. The RNG of the Curia is frustrating beyond belief.

I agree with the part about small countries.

I disagree. Catholicism in-game is the religion for empires. Catholicism doesn't have the largest military or economic bonuses, but it has a LOT of potential bonuses. The Treaty of Tordesillas is a large colonial boon, and the negatives can be avoided by, say, annexing the motherland that has what you want. This is easier when you excommunicate your rival, granting a casus beli against them to every other catholic nation. Even if they can't lose in one war, everyone will take a bite out of them if you cripple them. This can even be done indirectly by taking advantage of their lowered tolerance of the true faith and supporting a !@#$tone of rebels. Do the heathens have a juicy province but you don't have the time to fabricate a claim in their moment of weakness? Call a crusade and reap the rewards of your devotion to Catholicism. These do require being controller of the curia, but as I said this is the nation of empires. The pope has no time for every city-state's "crisis", he has larger fish to fry. If you are small and expect to stay that way, then Protestant is the way to go as it was historically. But if you have imperial ambitions, unfounded or not, the Pope will be your greatest ally if you can show him you are worth his time.

Do you think anyone but the Orthdox, colonials ex. England will stay Catholic in MP? With the new Protestantism you can constantly modify your bonuses according to your needs, it's just too good to be Protestant. You're wrong about the last part you wrote, nobody will care care about the Pope in the late game as he will surely just be crushed as soon as possible.

 

[TheDungen]

I wouldn't say this. Why did you think so? Protestants were as warlikely as Catholics. And Catholics were about trade and development too. Even if today someway a very pro-Protestant history seems to be dominant...

There's a diffrence between warlike and military conquest. The dutch for an example fought most of their wars over trade. The brittish similiarly only conquered land on their islands or in the colonies.

 

[TheDungen]

The Brandeburg-Prussian dukes converted around the end of the XVIth century to Calvinism and the era of Prussian military exploit was during the time the Prussian state religion was Calvinist.

It's true that the majority of the Prussian were not Calvinist but in EU terms it's the state religion that matters and Reformed base heretic tolerence + Humanism represents well the situation in Prussia in those times.

So you have one prussian king who were reformed and then just stuff about them having freedom of religion.

 

[IsadorBG]

So you have one prussian king who were reformed and then just stuff about them having freedom of religion.

All the following Prussian rulers were Calvinist until Frederic William III fused the Prussian Calvinist and Lutheran Churchs but that happened after the game's timeframe.

You also missed the part that said that the Prussian court was dominated by Calvinist despite the official tolerence. (And Lutheran majority)

So yeah I have 2 century of Brandeburg-Prussia with Calvinism as a state religion (longer than lutheranism mind you) and tolerent of other Christians denominations after their conversions to Calvinism (already included in the Reformed Faith base bonus).

What's the problem ?

 

[Thure]

There's a diffrence between warlike and military conquest. The dutch for an example fought most of their wars over trade. The brittish similiarly only conquered land on their islands or in the colonies.

But this has nothing to do with religion... More with the whole circumstances. You can't just say 'Catholics were more about military conquest than Protestants'.

 

[War_lord]

Sweden and Prussia being infamously peaceful states.

 

[TheDungen]

But this has nothing to do with religion... More with the whole circumstances. You can't just say 'Catholics were more about military conquest than Protestants'.

Well actually I can. But truth is it's not because of religion it shares a cause with religion. The countries that remained catholic were more conservative. They kept doing what they had always been doing and eventually it would lead to them being eclipsed by the more dynamic protestant and reformed states (though that is actually outside of EU4s era). There are two main areas this happened in. Industrial versus agrarial society, and free trade versus mercantilism.

 

[Krajzen]

Honestly there is one thing I don't understand with Buddhism.

If slider goes to one extreme it provides penalty. Okay but does it provide penalty to both aspects (-1 reputation, -5% discipline) or does it penalize one of them while other remains buffed? (-1 reputation +5% discipline)

 

[TheDungen]

Sweden and Prussia being infamously peaceful states.

No hence why I picked them as examples of militant protstant states. But they also suffered for their way of viewing things. Prussia/Germany didn't get into the colonial game until very late. And Sweden was so intent on territorial thinking that they squandered all their strenght until they were reduced to a third world country, which didn't really end until they happened to be the only nation standing after ww2. Sweden is an intresting case because while it was a protestant country it very closely mimiced the struture of their ally France and thus remained an agrarian society in a greater extent than many other protestant countries, it's only after they cut ties with france after Napoleon that they really get on with industrialisation.

 

[IsadorBG]

The countries that remained catholic were more conservative. They kept doing what they had always been doing and eventually it would lead to them being eclipsed by the more dynamic protestant and reformed states (though that is actually outside of EU4s era).

Err no neither France nor Austria (Catholic states !) were eclipsed by protestants states. And Belgium (Another catholic state) was a powerhouse in the Industrial age.

Even the richest Industrial region of Germany (Ruhr) is and was mostly catholic while protestant Prussia remained dominated by agriculture for a long time.

 

[TheDungen]

All the following Prussian rulers were Calvinist until Frederic William III fused the Prussian Calvinist and Lutheran Churchs but that happened after the game's timeframe.

You also missed the part that said that the Prussian court was dominated by Calvinist despite the official tolerence. (And Lutheran majority)

So yeah I have 2 century of Brandeburg-Prussia with Calvinism as a state religion (longer than lutheranism mind you) and tolerent of other Christians denominations after their conversions to Calvinism (already included in the Reformed Faith base bonus).

What's the problem ?

Except while the state religion was calvinist several of the rulers wasn't. The problem is that EU4 doesn't handle the whole merging religious freedom thing very well.

 

[IsadorBG]

Except while the state religion was calvinist several of the rulers wasn't. The problem is that EU4 doesn't handle the whole merging religious freedom thing very well.

No all the Prussian rulers were Calvinist after John Sigismund. The merging happened after EU timeframe and is thus irrelevent.

Tolerence to Lutheranism is very easy for Humanist Reformed and Prussia is a model of Humanism and that's mostly because it was a Reformed state with a heretic majority in fact just like other Reformed state like Switzerland.

 

[TheDungen]

Err no neither France nor Austria (Catholic states !) were eclipsed by protestants states. And Belgium (Another catholic state) was a powerhouse in the Industrial age.

Even the richest Industrial region of Germany (Ruhr) is and was mostly catholic while protestant Prussia remained dominated by agriculture for a long time.

France got eclipsed in every way by great brittain. First they took their american colonies, then later they took the african ones. There's a reason that the lingua franca is no longer (despite the name of the term) french.
Austria is in every way eclipsed by germany/prussia. There's a reason that Austria was called Germany's little brother when the lines for WW1 was being drawn. Sure they held lots of territory, but I think we've already established that's pretty pointless in modern times (actually it was probably pointless long before that).
And yes true enough the states that had religious freedom did the best of all, but most protestant countries ended up having religious freedom way sooner than their catholic counterparts. (With notable exception being Brittains rampart anti catholic sentiments)

 

[War_lord]

Well actually I can. But truth is it's not because of religion it shares a cause with religion. The countries that remained catholic were more conservative. They kept doing what they had always been doing and eventually it would lead to them being eclipsed by the more dynamic protestant and reformed states (though that is actually outside of EU4s era). There are two main areas this happened in. Industrial versus agrarial society, and free trade versus mercantilism.

You realize that that narrative of the "Protestant work ethic" dates from the early 1900's right? It's a false construct. Capitalism has its origins in Renaissance Italy, one of Europe's most industrialized Nations was Catholic Belgium. And Mercantilism was a policy that Protestant states actually enforced to a greater degree then Catholic states were able to.

State Policy was dictated by circumstances not faith. The idea that Protestant and Reformed states were major players because Catholicism is intrinsically conservative and anti-progress as compared to the newer faiths borders on bigotry.

 

[TheDungen]

No all the Prussian rulers were Calvinist after John Sigismund. The merging happened after EU timeframe and is thus irrelevent.

Tolerence to Lutheranism is very easy for Humanist Reformed and Prussia is a model of Humanism and that's mostly because it was a Reformed state with a heretic majority in fact.

Friedrich the great was a deist. And that's just one example. Also the major sucess of prussia in war was outside of the timeframe as well.

 

[TheDungen]

You realize that that narrative of the "Protestant work ethic" dates from the early 1900's right? It's a false construct. Capitalism has its origins in Renaissance Italy, one of Europe's most industrialized Nations was Catholic Belgium. And Mercantilism was a policy that Protestant states actually enforced to a greater degree then Catholic states were able to.

State Policy was dictated by circumstances not faith. The idea that Protestant and Reformed states were major players because Catholicism is intrinsically conservative and anti-progress as compared to the newer faiths borders on bigotry.

No i'm saying that they remained catholic because they were conservative not the other way around. I'm just suggesting that the game use this mechanic to handle it. Of course letting countries with certain ideagroups be more likely to go protestant/reformed would be a better one.

I have no idea what Protestant work ethic suposedly is but you can't seriously not see the geograpical division of industrialisation in europe? Not only is the norhtern countries generallt more industrilised but most countries are also more industrilised in the northern part of the country (though the latter is probably for other reasons). Just look at which countries are pro versus anti CAP.

Also protestants enforcing mercanitlism? The brittish and even more the dutch traded with their colonies the spanish just shipped resources back to spain. And you know what else came from Renaissance Italy? Mercantilism.

 

[IsadorBG]

France got eclipsed in every way by great brittain. Austria in every way by germany/prussia. And yes true enough the states that had religious freedom did the best of all, but most protestant countries ended up having religious freedom way sooner than their catholic counterparts.

Yes but France and Austria were not eclipsed because they were catholics and they were still great powers until WWI.
Protestants country were usually more tolerent because they had more religious minorities. Still both France and Austria were more tolerent than the United Kingdom (Ireland) or Germany.

In fact both UK and Germany later declined in the XXth century compared to France or Italy.

Friedrich the great was a deist. And that's just one example.

Yes but nominally he was still Calvinist.

Henry IV of France was Calvinist at heart but he nominally converted to catholisicm.

 

[War_lord]

France got eclipsed in every way by great brittain. Austria in every way by germany/prussia. And yes true enough the states that had religious freedom did the best of all, but most protestant countries ended up having religious freedom way sooner than their catholic counterparts.

Which had to do with factors like the Austrian Empire being a feudal construction with two Governments, a largely illiterate rural populace and a lack of cultural unity due to large ethic minorities with a history of resisting central government. I don't really see how France got "eclipsed" by Great Britain considering they were two great powers that had totally different concerns and thus can't be generally compared. Protestant countries had their share of periods of Religious suppression. (Kulturkampf)

No i'm saying that they remained catholic because they were conservative not the other way around.

A dubious statement.

As I said, these developments in history had complex external and internal factors, with circumstances and luck playing a part too. You can't boil everything down to simple A or B.