Knowledge of Enemies

[EntropyAvatar]

It would be interesting to find out how much information a player will have about competing empires. The convention in space 4x games seems to be that you know some very general facts, but otherwise can only see what's in range of your sensors.

I'm reading Castles of Steel right now, and it reminded me how much each side knew about the other's building plans. In the political and espionage environment of WW1 and WW2, it seems that while you could keep a few things secret (the size of the Yamato class, VT fuses, etc), the enemy generally knew a lot about your ship design and numbers.

If the game is a high-information environment, you can play a game of design and counter-design with your competitors, counter their peacetime deployments with your own, etc. On the other hand, with less knowledge, it seems like battles would be more more likely to result in lopsided outcomes: "Turns out the enemies fleet is built around missiles and we focused on armour instead of point defences. Whoops!".

Less knowledge fits a scenario where you are expanding into the unknown, crossing paths with a mysterious alien menace. More knowledge fits a great-power competition, with the occasional 'secret project' surprise. This would probably be the natural outcome if intelligence on your competitors depended on the degree of physical, diplomatic and economic contact, and built up over time. So if you want to keep yourself a mystery to others, don't sign that trade agreement!

 

[Sarius1997]

It will probably change during the course of the game

 

[Thrake]

I can't imagine a Paradox game without a ledger containing more information that you would ever want to use

 

[prismaticmarcus]

I can't imagine a Paradox game without a ledger containing more information that you would ever want to use

it'd be cool if the ledger were dynamic i.e. more and more information types open up over time. this would be a good simulation of learning more about other civs

 

[Tim_Ward]

This really, really needs to be the primary function of espionage.

In most strategy games, the purpose of spies is almost always sabotage. In the real world, almost all spying activity is about finding out about another nation.

 

[Wenla]

I know that spying is world's second oldest profession, but in space (=other planets with other races), is it difficult to physically do undercover work when you are human race but the other is something really different form...

Using middle hands with spying is quite risky, isn't it?

 

[Thrake]

I know that spying is world's second oldest profession, but in space (=other planets with other races), is it difficult to physically do undercover work when you are human race but the other is something really different form...

Unless there are no greedy alliens, no migration and no trade, I don't see why it would be impossible.

 

[Krajzen]

I can't imagine a Paradox game without a ledger containing more information that you would ever want to use

Ledgers always contain far not enough information I would like to have!!

 

[Tim_Ward]

I know that spying is world's second oldest profession, but in space (=other planets with other races), is it difficult to physically do undercover work when you are human race but the other is something really different form...

Using middle hands with spying is quite risky, isn't it?

• surveillance
• bugging
• signals interception
• hacking
• breaking and entering
• bribery/blackmail
• dissident groups
• criminal groups
• rubber masks

 

[Quaade]

I know that spying is world's second oldest profession, but in space (=other planets with other races), is it difficult to physically do undercover work when you are human race but the other is something really different form...

What are you saying... That humans don´t blend in well ;-) on a more serious note to this, would really depend on the specie being more open and tolerant thus opening their borders to different species for all sorts of purposes. But a more secluded, egocentric species would be more difficult to spy on since a human do stand out and must rely more on secondhand information or the occasional traitor who can be become your spy.

On OP I would like to see something like this, gaining more knowledge to the different species as we go along. Needing to plant spies to know what their plans and tech is all about and keeping it there to see what they do next. You might need the spy elsewhere but then you might be caught by surprise since they have discovered this wonderful tech in the mean time that wreacks havoc on your past tactics.

This go along into the way of the skirmish/simple hostile actions I want, since you don´t know if this race is war-like you must guess to his actions. Imagine a small fleet of battleships entering your borders, do you attack them (no need for declaration since simple hostile actions can be done at any time) or wait and see what he does with it. Perhaps it´s just an exploration fleet or a trade fleet wanting to trade with you. This might be further hindered if you cannot understand them at first and can´t ask them to leave or state their bussines. Do you wait and see if they attack your planets, do you send a fleet to show your strength which the other party sees as an aggression... Possibilities are endless and could be quite cool to have this action-reaction

 

[Actsub]

I know that spying is world's second oldest profession, but in space (=other planets with other races), is it difficult to physically do undercover work when you are human race but the other is something really different form...

Using middle hands with spying is quite risky, isn't it?

Using middlemen is actually the essence of modern (HUMINT) espionage. A 'spy' is rarely going to be your James Bond archetype, going undercover on a solo infiltration to dig up dirt; it's typically going to be a locally recruited asset, embassy staff and so on, but with a handler who answers directly to whatever intelligence agency they work for.

It's just a lot easier, cheaper and less risky than spending a whole lot of time and money training one of your own in how to blend perfectly into wherever they're being deployed, and there's less of a downside to completely cutting all ties if they get caught.

Also, what the other guy said. SIGINT is the way of the future, so why wouldn't it be the big thing in space?

 

[echo2361]

I like the way SOTS handled this topic. After researching an early game tech, you unlocked a log of all alien ships you've encountered and a breakdown of their designs with weapons info and such. It was pretty cool to follow along with the AI's progress when you saw Archer Mk 2's appear on the log with upgraded fusion missiles as the enemy unlocked new techs and implemented them into their ships.

Being able to obtain this info through various means besides just seeing it in battle, like via espionage or stealth recon missions with covert frigates looking at enemy shipyards would be great to have.

 

[aitaituo]

I know that spying is world's second oldest profession, but in space (=other planets with other races), is it difficult to physically do undercover work when you are human race but the other is something really different form...

Isn't that the kind of thinking that created the Japanese-American interment camps? Unless the polity is Tokugawa Shogunate level of xenophobia or higher (and there was still a small number of foreign merchants in Edo Japan at any given time), other species' tourists/merchants/dignitaries/missionaries/migrants/descendents of migrants/mercenaries/et al aren't going to be so rare that the immediate conclusion of bystanders at seeing an alien is "Probable spy, better call the police."

 

[Quaade]

Isn't that the kind of thinking that created the Japanese-American interment camps? Unless the polity is Tokugawa Shogunate level of xenophobia or higher (and there was still a small number of foreign merchants in Edo Japan at any given time), other species' tourists/merchants/dignitaries/missionaries/migrants/descendents of migrants/mercenaries/et al aren't going to be so rare that the immediate conclusion of bystanders at seeing an alien is "Probable spy, better call the police."

Japan was effectively shut down for foreigners, which led to US sailing a few frigates into the harbour and lifting the ban on foreigners. But I guess there could be a few migrants, it's a lot of shore to cover with not every daymo being loyal. But spies would for the most part be hired from these lords and their men.

 

[aruon]

hopefully spying isn't just for purely military purposes. it'd be good to get some general info on a species before even first contact.

and while the concept of old fashioned physical espionage on the interstellar scale- even in a friendly nation is mostly absurd (see "there are no black men in russia joke") hacking and spying are still quite feasible, especially if there are stealth ships like the ONI prowlers from halo. a single stealth ship hanging around an orbital installation could grant a treasure trove of info provided hacks don't get traced or the ship doesn't get spotted.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

• surveillance
• bugging
• signals interception
• hacking
• breaking and entering
• bribery/blackmail
• dissident groups
• criminal groups
• rubber masks

is the last one related to seduction focus?

 

[Nikolai]

I think it would be only logical in a future where information presumably is easy to get and tech is so advanced, that there will be a lot of information available.

 

[Quaade]

or the ship doesn't get spotted.

Or that a spaceship happens to fly into it ;-) actually was close to happen in Denmark where one of the Russian spyplanes that wasn´t showing on radar was close to being flown into by a commercial flight...

I think it would be only logical in a future where information presumably is easy to get and tech is so advanced, that there will be a lot of information available.

So your logic is that security on that end isn´t secured it might get better than simply hack in, but you might be right seing how hackers are able to all sorts of things these days

 

[Wenla]

Unless there are no greedy alliens, no migration and no trade, I don't see why it would be impossible.

I didn't said "impossible", I said "more difficult".

Hacking: I think that difficulties lies with different technics, meaning that if you use drums for information sending/receaving, how you 'hack' other tribe's information when they uses smoke marks for that?

 

[Tim_Ward]

is the last one related to seduction focus?

I really hope it's not. :\

Hacking: I think that difficulties lies with different technics, meaning that if you use drums for information sending/receaving, how you 'hack' other tribe's information when they uses smoke marks for that?

An intersteller empire's signals intelligence service would have entire departments of very smart people devoted to understanding, replicating and ultimately being able to interact with the computer technologies of alien empires. Figuring out the basis of the alien's IT technology wouldn't be that hard, you just get hold of civilian examples and get your engineers to figure out how it works. Working out how their communications technologies work would be harder and breaking their cryptography would be extremely challenging. But you throw enough brains, money and computer processing power at it, you could at least have a crack at it.