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Please don't use 'Ancient race' cliche

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Murmeldjuret said:
As sick as I too am of this cliche it is hard to avoid some form of "prior empires" regardless of how much of 100% completion they got in tech and conquest. Unless all civs get space travel at around the same time, which is unlikely barring any universe wide rewrite of physical laws, there has to have been someone who got it earlier, and thus have a headstart in %completion.

The main trope is that the old roman golden age, any prior empire in fact, is the nostalgic romanticism which works so well for storytelling and generating a sense of continuity and epicness is so common it is getting watered down.
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I would argue it was never that potent to begin with. Though I should probably add that my favorite era's in history are the enlightenment and 19th century all of which are marked by a separation from classical civilization. Also I think the point about prior civilizations as a trope is missed somewhat. The assistance of prior civilizations isn't really the trope. Its their omnipresence and exceedingly ridiculous power level. I would love to see the remains of failed mid-level empires strewn about the galaxy. It would give me frames of reference and allow me to asks cool questions like "what happened to these guys".
 
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If there are many star faring races the odds that we're part of the first bunch are very slim. The trick is to handle the ancient race well. See e.g. Babylon 5. As for the ego thing, the trick is to set things up such that you can rival and surpass the Ancients: See the MoO series where you can attack and annihilate the last (rebellious) remnant of the ancient Orions. But I agree about "creating the other races" I hate that.

On this subject and the subject of late game catastrophes, it turns out there is a way to orbit inside a blackhole and not be destroyed. Of course, the energy requirements to do this are absurd, you'd have to totally use up several stars, but, you could place a planet in there. The catch, is that it may not be possible to escape the black hole without outside interference. Another interesting theory: Many scientists believe that the universe is born and dies and is born and dies again. Some theorize, that the only things from the old universe that might survive into the new one are... black holes.

So an incomprehensibly ancient civilization uses a black hole as a life boat... and then, one universe later, some science ship stops by and pokes at it...
 
Mathrafalovich said:
If there are many star faring races the odds that we're part of the first bunch are very slim. The trick is to handle the ancient race well. See e.g. Babylon 5. As for the ego thing, the trick is to set things up such that you can rival and surpass the Ancients: See the MoO series where you can attack and annihilate the last (rebellious) remnant of the ancient Orions. But I agree about "creating the other races" I hate that.
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It depends what you mean about Babylon 5. Of the younger races it's pretty cool that not everyone got to the stars together but at the same time the actual ancient races are the epitome of the trope. Oh, JMS is a kickass writer and presented them as more well rounded then that but if you break it down they pretty much are the same as in all the other sci-fi universes. Ancient race from millions of years in the past with inscrutable motives that we'd never understand running around dicking with the younger races. Oh but they won't actually help them. They're just there clogging out the space lanes being all enigmatic. The only thing that really marks out Babylon 5 is that they kick the buggers out of the galaxy but even then they leave behind huge stocks of super technology to cause problems in the galaxy, just becoming the 'extinct' version of this trope.

I definitely agree that this stuff has been overdone. It doesn't inspire the same kind of wonder and amazement anymore. Oh look we found an ancient race who's hubris made them fall from galactic power. What are the odds? It's only the fifth game in a row.
 
LostAlone said:
It depends what you mean about Babylon 5. Of the younger races it's pretty cool that not everyone got to the stars together but at the same time the actual ancient races are the epitome of the trope. Oh, JMS is a kickass writer and presented them as more well rounded then that but if you break it down they pretty much are the same as in all the other sci-fi universes. Ancient race from millions of years in the past with inscrutable motives that we'd never understand running around dicking with the younger races. Oh but they won't actually help them. They're just there clogging out the space lanes being all enigmatic. The only thing that really marks out Babylon 5 is that they kick the buggers out of the galaxy but even then they leave behind huge stocks of super technology to cause problems in the galaxy, just becoming the 'extinct' version of this trope.

I definitely agree that this stuff has been overdone. It doesn't inspire the same kind of wonder and amazement anymore. Oh look we found an ancient race who's hubris made them fall from galactic power. What are the odds? It's only the fifth game in a row.
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Having the ancient civilizations still be around in the first place as anything other than "sealed evil/good in a can" is rather unusual. Having the ancients then guide the younger races is also new and interesting. But the thing about the First Ones that I really like is that they aren't a Rome expo (massive galaxy ruling civilization that fell to its own hubris) and they aren't enlightened really. They have internal politics other than the extremes of "perfect unity" and "apocalyptic civil war" and they made dumb decisions like the younger races did. Also, their motives are understandable, they just put a lot of effort into appearing inscrutable.
 
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i hope there's the chance of an elder race that is on near-equal footing with everyone else. rebuilding itself after an apocalyptic collapse.
 
B-but the Enkindlers...
 
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Krajzen said:
e) Ridiculous 'super amazing biotechnology which is capable of rivalling technology' - claws destroying tanks, bio space ships shooting spores, acid artillery, such nonsense. Sorry, no biological thing can replace radio, laser guiding systems, orbital rockets, nuclear fusion, microscope and graphene.
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Viruses and diseases are literally impossible to stop well when released. Acid artillery and claws destroying tanks? Here on earth there is mold capable of destroying concrete.
Spores? Have you seen what happens to an allergic doing spring? A very much more potent and alien version of that could have you swell up into a balloon and go kaboozies.
This could definitely be explored far further in a game like Stellaris.
 
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Haldan said:
Viruses and diseases are literally impossible to stop well when released. Acid artillery and claws destroying tanks? Here on earth there is mold capable of destroying concrete.
Spores? Have you seen what happens to an allergic doing spring? A very much more potent and alien version of that could have you swell up into a balloon and go kaboozies.
This could definitely be explored far further in a game like Stellaris.
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I don't know... having biological creations handling information and communication like our brains already do? Using biological weapons that kill people? GROWING things? This totally kills my immersion; I'll be sure to travel through wormholes and fire reverse tachyon beams at any aliens I encounter using such implausible technology.
 
Well, in a game with random events there is bound to be some scenarios where there was a primordial alien race that went extinct. But yeah, I agree it's an overused trope. Hopefully it doesn't happen every game.
 
Baro said:
I'd love to have lots of options on universe generation so you could play everything from "humans are the only intelligent life" to tons of existing and dead ancient empires and all the most high space fantasy tropes, and everything in between.
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I agree with Baro.

Personally I'd prefer to see an Ancient Civ, maybe dormant but still existent. More options are better, however. What I may like, others might not.

There is so much material to use, or relate to. We should use it (or the option to). It'll make for a less predictable game.
 
From what I've heard so far about Stellaris, it is going to be a game that will contain almost every single sci-fi trope with a chance of them firing. Which is an idea I like. So, I'd like there to be a chance that in your game there was the 'ancient lost race' thing. Of course! Some games no. Other games yes.
 
Elryos said:
If the end date is far enough away, we could become the ancient race!

Or maybe there could be a savegame converter "Stellaris end date"->"Stellaris starting date", which takes the old galaxy, destroys some planets/systems here and there, puts some new in, and takes the vast fallen empires from the converted save into account for ruin planets and other stuff. Maybe those savegames could be even transferable, so another player could play in the ruins of my fallen civilization. :eek:
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Shut up and take my money
 
yerm said:
I don't know... having biological creations handling information and communication like our brains already do? Using biological weapons that kill people? GROWING things? This totally kills my immersion; I'll be sure to travel through wormholes and fire reverse tachyon beams at any aliens I encounter using such implausible technology.
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Hah.
Well I for one think that we greatly underestimate nature.
 
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LostAlone said:
It depends what you mean about Babylon 5. Of the younger races it's pretty cool that not everyone got to the stars together but at the same time the actual ancient races are the epitome of the trope. Oh, JMS is a kickass writer and presented them as more well rounded then that but if you break it down they pretty much are the same as in all the other sci-fi universes. Ancient race from millions of years in the past with inscrutable motives that we'd never understand running around dicking with the younger races. Oh but they won't actually help them. They're just there clogging out the space lanes being all enigmatic. The only thing that really marks out Babylon 5 is that they kick the buggers out of the galaxy but even then they leave behind huge stocks of super technology to cause problems in the galaxy, just becoming the 'extinct' version of this trope.

I definitely agree that this stuff has been overdone. It doesn't inspire the same kind of wonder and amazement anymore. Oh look we found an ancient race who's hubris made them fall from galactic power. What are the odds? It's only the fifth game in a row.
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Where's the fun in being an ancient powerful race if you can't gallivant around the galaxy being all enigmatic and inscrutable, giving completely meaningless advice to younger races and watch as they try to piece some meaning to your words. Like this clip where Delenn seeks advice on stopping the war from the Vorlons, and after just being all 'uhhhh' for a moment, they give the amazing piece of advice, "the truth points to itself."

I like to imagine that after Delenn leaves, Ulkesh was all 'lolz, good one Naranek.'
 
tupaclives said:
Just avoid the mass-ascension to a higher plane stuff.
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Oh god yes. That shit ruins games, I hate it when ascension is part of sci-fi. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and as a "victory" condition it just says "we're bailing out, you guys can have our stuff".
 
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