Please don't use 'Ancient race' cliche

[cookiesandmilk3]

I'd love to have lots of options on universe generation so you could play everything from "humans are the only intelligent life" to tons of existing and dead ancient empires and all the most high space fantasy tropes, and everything in between.

This would be awesome. It would give you every option possible for a game, like a game focused on colonisation and managing your empire, to a game where you are in a constant war for survival. It would be cooler if there were an option in which it random selects which ones to use, so you have no idea what kind of universe you're going into.

 

[Alias72]

I think the OP's point was the omnipresent type of ancient civilization. The idea of ancient and fallen civilizations leaving behind wreckage to reverse engineer is different from the (somewhat spiritual) type of ancient civilization present in Galactic civilizations Arnor, Halo's Forerunner, and Mass effects Prothean. the problems with the trope are simple.

1. It presents a homogeneous past that waters down the differences of the present especially as the storyteller attempts to join all the different factions in some way to this ancient past. (all roads lead to space Rome.)
2. It presents the greatest threat to a highly developed civilization as itself. Even if an outside force destroys the empire it is usually portrayed as being the empires fault. I mean we DID almost vaporize Earth but that doesn't mean that the source of our downfall will necessarily be internal. more often than not this is philosophical projection. (the Barbarians at the gates.)
3. It sets an unreachable goal. The purpose of the game is usually to conquer the map. Here we are presented with a race that already did better then we are ever likely too. This hearkens back to the good old roman envy. (Byzantine by any other name.)
4. It stifles the feeling of progress. We didn't crawl up from the primordial goo so that we could be slaves to Plato and Aristotle. The renaissance gave way to the enlightenment. The enlightenment gave way to the industrial revolution. just as we left behind our ancestors so too should our fictional space empires. (an age of discovery.)

The hints I left in brackets coalesce into an idea here. To Pompous Didn't Read: I have an idea here -->
The tropes inherent in this type of sci-fi setting come from our attempts to project our history, and our older philosophies onto the future. What we have in this trope is a space Rome. The problem with this trope is it makes us space medieval fiefdoms (with a few space vikings and space mongols and WAY to many space Wolves!) this doesn't mean that space should start as an empty history-less place. But to create such a bland premise is to undermine the foundation of your story. Space should have a diverse past with diverse empires that met diverse fates. instead of space Rome I would like to see the wreckage of Space WW1. with crumbled and decaying empires mixed in with new upstarts.

 

[Harle]

One of the things that I took away from the information I've read about the game so far, was that there is no one single galactic story. You may have one playthrough where there was an ancient civilization that dominated the galaxy at one point, and one where there isn't. I might be wrong about that, I am just making an assumption based on the random event focus. In the endgame, a lot of things can happen, and a lot more things won't happen. Maybe an ancient race is one of those things, maybe it's not.

I don't actually have an issue with the trope, in the sense that it doesn't bother me or present challenges to enjoying the game, but I can't argue that it's a little overdone in 4x space games by now. Distant Worlds has that thing going on, but smartly allows you to turn off those events entirely, meaning you can play entire games without encountering any significant sign of an ancient species. That said, many of the game's mechanics and details do still strongly imply it. You can't get away from the fact that you are playing a 'reawakened' civilization, just re-establishing space-faring technology after some forcibly imposed dark age. The wrecks of ships and stations still litter the galaxy. So it's hard to get away from it entirely.

I guess the fact is that space can be kind of huge and empty, and a precursor race provides a lot of room to insert interesting objects and events into a world. Maybe it's not terribly creative at this point, but y'know.

 

[Alias72]

I agree. I generally do not have a problem with the trope except for its ridiculous overuse. but I feel a universe that was and to an extent still is inhabited by a vast quantity of diverse civilizations would be interesting. you could theoretically discover the remains of a gigantic conflict between two empires complete with ruined fleets and monument. Encounter the survivors of the victors empire, now decaying after the crippling cost of the war. In effect the galaxy would be filled with a number of small stories instead of a titanic overarching deus ex machina. ready to uplift your species.

 

[Vanhal]

I actually like the "ancient race" concept. I would rather think of it as staple concept than overused one.

 

[Krajzen]

If the end date is far enough away, we could become the ancient race!

Or maybe there could be a savegame converter "Stellaris end date"->"Stellaris starting date", which takes the old galaxy, destroys some planets/systems here and there, puts some new in, and takes the vast fallen empires from the converted save into account for ruin planets and other stuff. Maybe those savegames could be even transferable, so another player could play in the ruins of my fallen civilization.

Sounds super awesome.

Anyway, personally I just hope there won't be 'insectoid hive mind using only biotechnology' race.

a) It is lazy, because while 'hive mind' is potentially interesting idea, most writers assume it's 'one sentient guy per race of mindless drones' which is idiotic
b) It is very used cliche
c) It is fantasy, because such race would need telepathy to function and I really hope Stellaris avoids paranormal activity (not only movie)
d) ...it is even more fantasy ich such race can use FTL travel, if space travel was not insane enough with...
e) Ridiculous 'super amazing biotechnology which is capable of rivalling technology' - claws destroying tanks, bio space ships shooting spores, acid artillery, such nonsense. Sorry, no biological thing can replace radio, laser guiding systems, orbital rockets, nuclear fusion, microscope and graphene.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

OP is actually from an ancient alien race and is just trying to cover up his existence.

 

[Me_]

I'm with the OP, but it seems like "ancient race" will be covered by fallen empires that do not colonize any more but have access to high-level tech from the start, so while the cliche might kind-of be present it appears to be in a lite form.

If the end date is far enough away, we could become the ancient race!

Or maybe there could be a savegame converter "Stellaris end date"->"Stellaris starting date", which takes the old galaxy, destroys some planets/systems here and there, puts some new in, and takes the vast fallen empires from the converted save into account for ruin planets and other stuff. Maybe those savegames could be even transferable, so another player could play in the ruins of my fallen civilization.

That's the most awesome idea I've seen on this forum.

 

[aruon]

That's the most awesome idea I've seen on this forum.

agreed. i'd love to have a situation where you conquer half the galaxy and get to skip ahead tens of thousands of years (or yeah an intragame converter) to where you're reduced to a dangerously low population total in a backwater system. massive tech advantages, the element of surprise, mystique, but a strong isolationist and xenophobic leaning making your own dying race just as much an enemy as the unknown.

 

[Vanhal]

agreed. i'd love to have a situation where you conquer half the galaxy and get to skip ahead tens of thousands of years (or yeah an intragame converter) to where you're reduced to a dangerously low population total in a backwater system. massive tech advantages, the element of surprise, mystique, but a strong isolationist and xenophobic leaning making your own dying race just as much an enemy as the unknown.

Yeah, overcoming this should be real challenge. Something like playing Byzantium in EU

 

[viola]

Sounds super awesome.

Anyway, personally I just hope there won't be 'insectoid hive mind using only biotechnology' race.

a) It is lazy, because while 'hive mind' is potentially interesting idea, most writers assume it's 'one sentient guy per race of mindless drones' which is idiotic
b) It is very used cliche
c) It is fantasy, because such race would need telepathy to function and I really hope Stellaris avoids paranormal activity (not only movie)
d) ...it is even more fantasy ich such race can use FTL travel, if space travel was not insane enough with...
e) Ridiculous 'super amazing biotechnology which is capable of rivalling technology' - claws destroying tanks, bio space ships shooting spores, acid artillery, such nonsense. Sorry, no biological thing can replace radio, laser guiding systems, orbital rockets, nuclear fusion, microscope and graphene.

As a fan of the "Insectoid Hive Mind using only Biotechnology" I have to disagree.

a) This is not really an argument against Hive Mind Biological races, more that they should be done better.
b) And since cliches, overdone or not, are never inherently bad this point is entirely meaningless.
c) Didn't the devs already confirmed that dimensional invasions from space demons Event Horizon/WH40k style are a possibility? The game will probably have a lot of Fantasy elements, There's nothing wrong with that and honestly telepathy is pretty believable when compared to space demons.
d) Again, Fantasy is good and realism shouldn't stand in the way of cool ideas. Especially in a Science Fiction game that, by definition, is about fantastic, fictional stuff.
e) On the other hand giant bugs destroying tanks and eating spaceships are awesome, therefore ridiculous justifications to explain their existence and how they work will be made, Rule of Cool and all that stuff.

I seriously hope that the game won't sacrifice creativity and fun on the altar of someone's weird obsession about science and realism in a bloody Space game.
(I might have sounded more aggressive than I wanted to be though)

 

[Goosecreature]

The notion that there were others who came before you is an interesting one to me, but I agree that it can be a tired trope if handled poorly.

Anyone remember the Chodak from ST: A Final Unity? I thought those were an interesting bunch!

 

[yerm]

The notion that there were others who came before you is an interesting one to me, but I agree that it can be a tired trope if handled poorly.

Anyone remember the Chodak from ST: A Final Unity? I thought those were an interesting bunch!

Man, all I remember is the dude totally cheating at that 3 player game where he can take twice as many hits as Picard can, because Chodak. Also your away team looking like children playing a sidewalk game because they have to step exactly the same way you do. Also needing Worf to win that one battle, cause I was young and sucked.

Personally, as far as the trope goes, I like some of the wing commander approaches, like the Steltek going near-extinct due to civil war and blaming it on their weapons/tech and therefore abandoning progress on top of being depleted to near-extinct numbers. Or the Retros.

 

[Iron Chariots]

If the end date is far enough away, we could become the ancient race!

Or maybe there could be a savegame converter "Stellaris end date"->"Stellaris starting date", which takes the old galaxy, destroys some planets/systems here and there, puts some new in, and takes the vast fallen empires from the converted save into account for ruin planets and other stuff. Maybe those savegames could be even transferable, so another player could play in the ruins of my fallen civilization.

Holy shit, now I want to do a massive succession game with this.

 

[Zoston]

The notion that there were others who came before you is an interesting one to me, but I agree that it can be a tired trope if handled poorly.

Anyone remember the Chodak from ST: A Final Unity? I thought those were an interesting bunch!

I do! I do! Another forgotten game that was really quite good.

I think the key is to make the forgotten race include actual individuals with personality. Rather than just being some deus ex machina.

 

[klopkr]

I'm really sick of this cliche too, especially when it's the only possiblity like spore did.

 

[Dutch Empire]

Like such a ridiculous small detail could even make or break this awesome game :')

 

[TruckFeet]

Sounds super awesome.

Anyway, personally I just hope there won't be 'insectoid hive mind using only biotechnology' race.

a) It is lazy, because while 'hive mind' is potentially interesting idea, most writers assume it's 'one sentient guy per race of mindless drones' which is idiotic
b) It is very used cliche
c) It is fantasy, because such race would need telepathy to function and I really hope Stellaris avoids paranormal activity (not only movie)
d) ...it is even more fantasy ich such race can use FTL travel, if space travel was not insane enough with...
e) Ridiculous 'super amazing biotechnology which is capable of rivalling technology' - claws destroying tanks, bio space ships shooting spores, acid artillery, such nonsense. Sorry, no biological thing can replace radio, laser guiding systems, orbital rockets, nuclear fusion, microscope and graphene.

Spacefaring bee people would be more likely to be a "society of hives", with large bonuses to population (since there are a whole hive of workers per queen), and with pops converting ideologies in large groups for the same reason. Unless they've evolved a multi-tier system, with nth-level queens controlling n-1th level queens and so on, in which case there would be bonuses to unity but not necessarily population.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

As sick as I too am of this cliche it is hard to avoid some form of "prior empires" regardless of how much of 100% completion they got in tech and conquest. Unless all civs get space travel at around the same time, which is unlikely barring any universe wide rewrite of physical laws, there has to have been someone who got it earlier, and thus have a headstart in %completion.

The main trope is that the old roman golden age, any prior empire in fact, is the nostalgic romanticism which works so well for storytelling and generating a sense of continuity and epicness is so common it is getting watered down.

 

[Goosecreature]

Personally, as far as the trope goes, I like some of the wing commander approaches, like the Steltek going near-extinct due to civil war and blaming it on their weapons/tech and therefore abandoning progress on top of being depleted to near-extinct numbers. Or the Retros.

I don't think it was ever revealed why the Steltek had disappeared. A civil war was just one of several theories. When you met them, I think they only mentioned having "retreated" from the galaxy or some such without providing details.