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Me. And there is no reason to be so uncivil. And I disagree because I find your reasoning lacking.

I didn't mean anything uncivil by it.

Oh, it does. The materials science required to build a space elevator and a space gun is relatively similar, since both require high strength. So yes, the ability to easily transport civilian loads to orbit leads to efficient orbital guns.

You got that backwards. I was saying that just because you have a space elevator doesn't mean you also have an effective GROUND-based anti-space weapons. I agree with what you just said though: having a space elevator does mean that much of the problems with orbital defense platforms (cost of installation and maintenance for example) are mitigated.

On the part of lasers and particle weapons, I agree with you. On the part of missilies, the ground installation could easily use a giant (well hidden) rail gun to propel the missile into the upper atmosphere, where it ignites its drives. Also, the fundamental advantage of the ground is, as many have pointed out, to store/launch a larger number of larger missiles.

The rail gun thing is cool; I hadn't thought of that.

I'm not sure the ground advantage of storage/launching is relevant. The orbital platforms don't need to compete with the entire planet, just whatever size of facilities you were going to build on the planet. Once you have a well-developed asteroid mining/space manufacturing industry (which I am assuming is our civilization's next step and a prerequisite to anything involving "let's put a lot of weapons in space"), then building giant hollow containers for missiles seems pretty trivial - easier than on Earth, even. At that point, building things on the planet is a sucker's game. There is a lot of free cheap metal floating out there, and 24/7 solar power.

Or better yet, why build large missile racks at all? Just have the missiles floating cold in space, in minimal stealth casing, asleep until they receive targeting data and a fire order.

I am quite certain that if you have enough energy (and energy generation methods) to accelerate objects of non-trivial mass to relativistic speeds, you can build a death-star planet destroying laser. So I am going to disregard any argument in the category "assualt by relativistic meteor" as "game ender superweapon"

Sure, but so is the idea of "I've reinforced my planet's crust against asteroid impacts." I mean really, tectonic engineering is probably a fair candidate for "imaginary future technology." If we scale it back down to something reasonable (as opposed to reinforcing your planet's internal structure...) you can still get catastrophic results from an asteroid bombardment, or any kind of kinetic attack with a large dark cold projectile, even without relativistic speeds or 200 km^3 asteroids.

No, the opposite. A planet does not have to contend with considerations such as "limited storage space for ship systems", "mass/targetsize tradeoff" or limited fuel/food/endurance. A planetary missile base can simply railgun the projectiles into the lower atmosphere. Of course, if you want to be especially devious, you place the missile base on a moon, where it has both cover and lower gravity. And then a single base could potentially bury your fleet with multiple loads of their entire magazines worth. I think you underestimate how big a moon or planet are and how small in comparison spaceships are. I recommend playing Kerbal Space Program for the feeling and then remembering that everything in there is half or quater size of the "real thing"

You're looking at this wrong in two ways:

1. space ships don't need to compete with the size of a planet/moon. They need to compete with the size of a comparable function terrestrial military installation.
2. our orbital platforms are made in orbit, not on Earth. Talking about something like Kerbal is totally misleading because we're not launching these things into orbit (IIRC Kerbal correctly; that's the game where you build the ship and try to launch it, right?), we're constructing them in orbit. Having an orbital mining/construction industry is an obvious prerequisite to any military space operations.

I think your idea of putting a missile base on the moon is fine. Again, it's better there than on Earth.

Nope. For the invader maybe, but the defender has a large advantage. Planets are like cities in modern warfare. They produce all the things you want for war, but can be horrible meatgrinders. Of course, if you can just blow it up, but then you lose all the infrastructure and resources. As freeaxle has pointed out, if you want to get anything out of the system, it is in your best intrest to take the planet as intact as possible. The defender of course will want to raise the cost for that, forcing you to either invest a lot in taking the system or a lot into its reconstruction. Either way planetary and system defense is a way to make it pohibitively expensive.

Again, who knows? What's your planning timeframe? What are the goals of the campaign? Part of the problem here is that military conflicts between species don't make a lot of sense assuming the levels of technology that would have to be involved in the first place. If we're talking about a human military conflict between, say, some polity in the solar system vs earth, maybe they're willing to ruin half the planet and recolonize it decades or centuries later.
 
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I find it odd that no one has mentioned this: Why on Earth, or whatever planet you're on, would your planetary defenses come into effect AFTER the defending fleet has been defeated?
 
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Gigantic wall of text coming up...

I've seen some mentions of planetary anti-ship weapons mentioned here and I'd just like to say how much of a mistake such weapons are, if you'd like to not be glassed that is. If we operate under the idea that glassing a planet is discouraged and can have severe diplomatic repercussions (aka, it's the nuclear option) then having any form of planetary weapon is tantamount to suicide.
Completely wrong - it depends entirely on the assumptions you make about the setting. Principally:

1. Do FTL scanners exist?
2. Can I scale up shield generators to continental or planetary scale?
3. Is waste heat an issue?

If FTL scanners exist (and for the record, if FTL communications exist then FTL sensors exist by default... think about the relationship between receiving radiowaves for a radio, and reflecting radio waves for a radar installation), I can shoot down any relativistic missiles you lob my way. And if it's an asteroid, all I need to do is heat up one side of it, which will likely cause it to veer off course (NASA want to do similar for asteroid defence purposes).

If planetary or continental shield generators exist, I can spam them all over said planet.

If waste heat is an issue (see IRL), the planet wins again because it's got a bajillion tonnes of planet to act as a gigantic heat sink, whereas your invading fleet has... well a few radiators and portable heat sinks. Good luck with that.

And finally, for every capital ship with its multi-megaton lasers you attack me with... why exactly can't I counter with massed batteries of bigger, meaner planet-based lasers? I've got the whole resources of a planet to work with - you've just got whatever your invasion fleet can bring and keep hidden from my planetary gamma-ray laser defence grid. Because a 2.9e-11m wavelength gamma ray laser with a 20m diameter lens will have a spot size of about 26 metres... on a target sitting Pluto. In other words, everything in line of sight of my defended planet is a valid target, light-speed lag permitting.

Now, taking real life as our model here, we have two basic means of attacking a planet:

1. Lasers: spot size on target depends on wavelength. A UV laser (1e-8m wavelength) with a 20m diameter lens will have a spot size of almost ten kilometres at the 100 AU range I used in the above example... "oh noes, not the sunburn!" :p . You won't even notice visible light lasers at that distance.
2. Missiles: assuming the defenders cannot interfere with them via jamming etc, they can be shot down (see above re massed batteries) and are not easily replaced. The defender on the other hand has basically unlimited power for their banks of lasers etc.

Particle beams are too short-ranged (that is, their optimum range is better for things like ship to ship combat), and I'm discounting technobabble solutions because we don't know what's available in Stellaris yet.

So, the best option for the attackers is gamma ray lasers (or x-ray ones etc) or missiles. They hide behind an outer-system planet, pop up, shoot, and pop back into hiding. The defenders meanwhile can be building their own fleet, reinforcing the static defences... all that kind of thing.

Oh yeah... what happens if the defenders can keep up constant fire on the planet the attackers are hiding behind? Because if you can (roughly) predict where the enemy fleet is, you can spam so much firepower towards the planet (or rather, around the planet) that anyone even thinking of poking their head above the parapet will get it shot off more or less immediately.

Regardless of weaponry a planet should be allowed to surrender before being subjected to bombardment. Otherwise it's going to be a feeble excuse diplomatically.
What if you can't spare the occupation / police forces and it's a total war? By all means if you're re-enacting the Hundred Years' War in space it might be okay, but if you're fighting Space Nazis instead... well there's a reason most historians consider dropping nukes on Japan to be the least bloody way to force their surrender.

It might be fun to use a Kessler defense. Just fill up local space with so much junk it's hazardous to go near the planet. Sure it blocks interplanetary trade and whatever, but we didn't really want their stuff anyway. A thick enough layer of junk might even provide protection from long range (non-relativistic) kinetic kill weapons.
All that energy and momentum has to go somewhere. If your relativistic kill vehicle smacks into, say, the International Space Station... it'll keep going. Sure, it might resemble a blob of plasma more than a rock now, but big deal - it'll still hit the atmosphere... and then dump all its energy into said atmosphere:

In the forests below, lakes caught the first rays of the rising Sun and threw them back into space. Abandoning the two-dimensional sprawl of twentieth-century cities, Sri Lanka Tower, and others like it, had been erected in the world's rain forests and farmlands, leaving the countryside virtually uninhabited. Even in Africa, where more than a hundred city arcologies had risen, nature was beginning to renew itself. It was a good day to be alive, she told herself, taking in the peace of the garden. Then, looking east, she saw it coming -- at least her eyes began to register it -- but her optic nerves did not last long enough to transmit what the eyes had seen.

It was quite small for what it could do -- small enough to fit into an average-sized living room -- but it was moving at 92 percent of light speed when it touched Earth's atmosphere. A spear point of light appeared, so intense that the air below snapped away from it, creating a low-density tunnel through which the object descended. The walls of the tunnel were a plasma boundary layer, six and a half kilometers wide and more than 160 deep -- the flaming spear that Virginia's eyes began to register -- with every square foot of its surface radiating a trillion watts, and still its destructive potential was but fractionally spent.

Thirty-three kilometers above the Indian Ocean, the point began to encounter too much air. It tunneled down only eight kilometers more, then stalled and detonated, less than two-thousandths of a second after crossing the orbits of Earth's nearest artificial satellites.

Virginia was more than three hundred kilometers away when the light burst toward her. Every nerve ending in her body began to record a strange, prickling sensation -- the sheer pressure of photons trying to push her backward. No shadows were cast anywhere in the tower, so bright was the glare. It pierced walls, ceramic beams, notepads, and people -- four hundred thousand people. The maglev terminal connecting Sri Lanka Tower to London and Sydney, the waste treatment centers that sustained the lakes and farms, all the shops, theaters, and apartments liquefied instantly. The structure began to slip and crash like a giant waterfall, but gravity could not yank it down fast enough. The Tower became vapor before it could fall half a meter. At the vanished city's feet, the trees of the forest were no longer able to cast shadows; they had themselves become long shadows of carbonized dust on the ground.

In Kandy and Columbo, where sidewalks steamed, the relativistic onslaught was unfinished. The electromagnetic pulse alone killed every living thing as far away as Bombay and the Maldives. All of India south of the Godavari River became an instant microwave oven. Nearer the epicenter, Demon Rock glowed with a fierce red heat, then fractured down its center, as if to herald the second coming of the tyrant it memorialized. The air blast followed, surging out of the Indian Ocean -- faster than sound -- flattening whatever still stood. As it slashed north through Jaffna and Madurai, the wave front was met and overpowered by shocks rushing out from strikes in central and southern India.
From "The Killing Star", referenced on the always-awesome Atomic Rockets website.

The real problem is the lack of habitable planets, it simply does not make sense to destroy and make inhabitable, or very hard to recolonize, a perfectly healthy planet. It costs you more to use more conventional means in the short run but in the long run you got a healthy planet ready for exploitation and colonization, if you just carpet bomb everything and nuke from orbit you get a bare rock.
Define "destroy"... if you mean, say, nuclear strikes on all the enemy cities etc, then the radiation threat's been overstated. If nothing else, nuking cities = best done with airbursts = minimal fallout. Factor in cleaner warheads and the likelihood of being able to find other places to build your own cities (never mind hypothetical radiation-cleaning tech), and it won't be too bad at all.

Meanwhile options like glassing a city with direct energy weapons like lasers will largely avoid the fallout / radiation problem as well.

You can not laser guide a relativistic projectile.

You can not wire-guide a rail-gun round across multiple AU.
In fact, I highly doubt wire-guiding a rail-gun round would even be possible to begin with.

If you think, as you said, that 'There is nothing particularly out-there about anything just listed', then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Well... a wire-guided one will not work (transmission lag + sheer mass of wire + tensile strength etc), but a laser-guided one is fine. You heat up part of the shell, generating a small amount of plasma. Said plasma will act like a tiny thruster, adjusting the shell's velocity.

Nope. This is a major misconception I keep seeing.

Whatever your source of energy is, you can build it more easily and better in space. More importantly you can build it denser in space, because in space you can build in three dimensions better than you can on a planet surface.
You're forgetting that building a giant solar panel in space is fine until it needs defending. Conversely, you can spam fission / fusion / antimatter reactors on the surface (and to an extent, within) of a planet, cover them with solar panels, and then throw in geothermal power as well, because why not.

To be sure, it's probably easier when at peace to simply rely on power beamed directly from your orbiting solar arrays... but this is obviously a war scenario.

Again, only solar power is viable for space mounted defenses.
Why? An orbital station doesn't need to manoeuvre much, so it can be really (really) big compared to a spaceship, which has to accelerate regularly (and size matters A LOT for mechanical stresses). In other words, you can shovel huge amounts of reactor fuel into it, and have it run off that - or better yet, have it run off that when its solar arrays are destroyed (and they will be).

but it also needs to be a lot more powerful from the ground because you lose so much power shooting through the atmosphere
You do know that not all wavelengths are absorbed equally by the atmosphere, right?

+

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Of course... it's likely that Paradox will use game mechanics to stop players building Invincible Planet-Forts of Doom (TM), because that makes for boring gameplay. However, given that game mechanics wasn't part of the argument here, I hope you can see my point that the assumptions you build into your sci-fi setting will determine whether planetary defences are a practical thing or not.
 
Nope. For the invader maybe, but the defender has a large advantage. Planets are like cities in modern warfare. They produce all the things you want for war, but can be horrible meatgrinders. Of course, if you can just blow it up, but then you lose all the infrastructure and resources. As freeaxle has pointed out, if you want to get anything out of the system, it is in your best intrest to take the planet as intact as possible. The defender of course will want to raise the cost for that, forcing you to either invest a lot in taking the system or a lot into its reconstruction. Either way planetary and system defense is a way to make it pohibitively expensive.

On the topic on detecting: An atmosphere hides a lot. I once had to work with radar data, and a few friends of mine worked on LIDAR so I know that ferreting out the positives from a noisy environment is hard, even without someone actively throwing around false positives. To carry out effective bombardment you either need to get close (i.e. planetary orbit) or you need ultra-fancy sensors. So ploking down on the other end of the system and bombarding from there is a bit of a misconception
They indeed have a huge advantage if the attacker wants the planet intact. If he is attacking mainly to deny you access to the planet that concern is not so important, and possibly the locals might decide to surrender eventually before the planet turns completely useless. Survival instinct and all that.

Same thing with detection, it's mostly a problem if you are trying to remove the defences with considerate surgeon-like strikes. You can also rely on "eventually I'll hit something important" where of course it's primarily going to be civilians.
 
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All that energy and momentum has to go somewhere. If your relativistic kill vehicle smacks into, say, the International Space Station... it'll keep going. Sure, it might resemble a blob of plasma more than a rock now, but big deal - it'll still hit the atmosphere... and then dump all its energy into said atmosphere:

Oh yeah, I'm very aware of that. The XKCD I linked played out a relativistic scenario. When it comes to relativistic projectiles, there are very few options unless you can intercept and deflect it relatively early.
I was thinking more along the lines of non-relativistic on that end; it wouldn't be much fun to stay in orbit with literal tons of space junk constantly flying by in mostly unpredictable orbits. Of course there are plenty of counter-measures, shielding ala Star Trek, heavy-duty lasers to burn out the junk. But it would be a cost adder to orbiting the planet.
 
You do know that not all wavelengths are absorbed equally by the atmosphere, right?

Of course. But I assume the ones we probably want to use are near the extreme UV end, so the atmosphere will readily absorb them. What did you have in mind? I mean, regardless of what it is, the atmosphere isn't going to help it; it's going to significantly weaken it.
 
I find it odd that no one has mentioned this: Why on Earth, or whatever planet you're on, would your planetary defenses come into effect AFTER the defending fleet has been defeated?

Possibly because the fleet engagement occurred at the edge of the solar system, or behind the sun. We really don't know, because we don't know the details of the enemy fleet's approach. But presumably there are some engagements where the planetary defenses are too far away to do anything or otherwise out of place. The question then is, what characteristics would immobile installations have? Orbital, terrestrial, missile, energy, etc? And what tactics would a mobile enemy fleet employ to attack the planet? And how would those two interact?
 
I was thinking more along the lines of non-relativistic on that end; it wouldn't be much fun to stay in orbit with literal tons of space junk constantly flying by in mostly unpredictable orbits.
Yeah... I can't help but think it wouldn't be very cost-effective though. You can still just remain further back and shoot things at them after all - even the debris cloud in WALL-E had the Earth visible beyond it.

Of course. But I assume the ones we probably want to use are near the extreme UV end, so the atmosphere will readily absorb them. What did you have in mind? I mean, regardless of what it is, the atmosphere isn't going to help it; it's going to significantly weaken it.
X-ray and gamma ray lasers ideally. X-rays mirrors and such exist already, so military versions should be a pretty hard sci-fi option. Gamma ray ones are more iffy, but even so, x-ray lasers ought to be enough.
 
I find it odd that no one has mentioned this: Why on Earth, or whatever planet you're on, would your planetary defenses come into effect AFTER the defending fleet has been defeated?
Well I think it was mentioned that planetary defences becomes much more useful if it's boosting a fleet instead of on it's own. If the planet can attack then it makes the most sense to use your fleet in it's vicinity if you are the underdog in terms of fleet size.

I think the main question was how the planet would fare if it was mostly alone. Possibly if it's attacked after it's fleet just left.
 
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Possibly because the fleet engagement occurred at the edge of the solar system, or behind the sun. We really don't know, because we don't know the details of the enemy fleet's approach. But presumably there are some engagements where the planetary defenses are too far away to do anything or otherwise out of place. The question then is, what characteristics would immobile installations have? Orbital, terrestrial, missile, energy, etc? And what tactics would a mobile enemy fleet employ to attack the planet? And how would those two interact?
SO defending fleet had an admiral that was moronic enough to move AWAY from the planet they're supposed to defend...?
 
Yeah, the atmosphere absorbs x-rays...
Yeah, was also thinking of the range though. Still, the Chandra X-ray observatory page reckons our atmosphere is equal to about 5m of concrete:

http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_astro/absorption.html

That... isn't too bad really. You'd maybe lose a few kilotons of energy to the atmosphere, but the rest ought to get through just fine. If the atmosphere was a magic no-limits absorption field then you'd have a problem, but it's not :) . Our x-ray telescopes etc are trying to pick up extremely faint signals (compared to weapons-grade ones that is :) ), so I don't think it will be a big issue.

Anyone know of any scientific papers regarding changes to x-ray absorption by the atmosphere as it's heated / absorbs x-rays? Should be able to tell us exactly how bad it would be.
 
SO defending fleet had an admiral that was moronic enough to move AWAY from the planet they're supposed to defend...?

Again, we don't know. Maybe the attacker has already arrived in the asteroid belt and is constructing something nasty out there. Unless you want to wait until a fast invisible ball of rock and iron is speeding towards your planet, you need to go out and engage them.
 
Yeah, was also thinking of the range though. Still, the Chandra X-ray observatory page reckons our atmosphere is equal to about 5m of concrete:

http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_astro/absorption.html

That... isn't too bad really. You'd maybe lose a few kilotons of energy to the atmosphere, but the rest ought to get through just fine. If the atmosphere was a magic no-limits absorption field then you'd have a problem, but it's not :) . Our x-ray telescopes etc are trying to pick up extremely faint signals (compared to weapons-grade ones that is :) ), so I don't think it will be a big issue.

Anyone know of any scientific papers regarding changes to x-ray absorption by the atmosphere as it's heated / absorbs x-rays? Should be able to tell us exactly how bad it would be.

When you "lose" energy into the atmosphere, you heat it up. It doesn't vanish.

Imagine thousands of weapons platforms discharging kilotons of energy into the atmosphere all at once, and doing it continuously. With defenses like this, you don't need enemies to glass your planet.

Defenses in space have no such issue.
 
Yeah, was also thinking of the range though. Still, the Chandra X-ray observatory page reckons our atmosphere is equal to about 5m of concrete:

http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_astro/absorption.html

That... isn't too bad really. You'd maybe lose a few kilotons of energy to the atmosphere, but the rest ought to get through just fine. If the atmosphere was a magic no-limits absorption field then you'd have a problem, but it's not :) . Our x-ray telescopes etc are trying to pick up extremely faint signals (compared to weapons-grade ones that is :) ), so I don't think it will be a big issue.

Yeah, it's pretty bad.
 
SO defending fleet had an admiral that was moronic enough to move AWAY from the planet they're supposed to defend...?
Maybe the fleet is responsible for defending two systems and he had to pick or maybe he attacked and was tricked (so returning takes time). Not necessarily a moronic move, even if it turns out to have been a mistake.
 
When you "lose" energy into the atmosphere, you heat it up. It doesn't vanish.

Imagine thousands of weapons platforms discharging kilotons of energy into the atmosphere all at once, and doing it continuously. With defenses like this, you don't need enemies to glass your planet.

Defenses in space have no such issue.
Defences in space have their own problems, as noted earlier.

As for heating the atmosphere... big deal. It masses a few quadrillion tonnes, so heating that to the point where it's dangerous for you (never mind to the point where it's as dangerous as a hostile orbital bombardment) would require a truly hilarious amount of energy. Consider our own atmosphere, which is about 80% nitrogen. Consider then the specific heat of nitrogen - that is, the energy required to heat a kg of nitrogen up by 1 degree. Consider then how many teratons upon teratons of nitrogen are in the atmosphere... yeah, it's not a problem at the energies I mentioned (megatons of TNT).
 
Defences in space have their own problems, as noted earlier.

As for heating the atmosphere... big deal. It masses a few quadrillion tonnes, so heating that to the point where it's dangerous for you (never mind to the point where it's as dangerous as a hostile orbital bombardment) would require a truly hilarious amount of energy. Consider our own atmosphere, which is about 80% nitrogen. Consider then the specific heat of nitrogen - that is, the energy required to heat a kg of nitrogen up by 1 degree. Consider then how many teratons upon teratons of nitrogen are in the atmosphere... yeah, it's not a problem at the energies I mentioned (megatons of TNT).

Thousands of weapons firing shells and lasers that have yields of kilotons or megatons, for weeks or months or years continuously, while simultaneously being attacked by orbital bombardment.

It'll add up fast. Even changes of a few degrees would be disastrous.

Oh shit I need to do math now.