Hearts of Iron IV - 33rd Development Diary - Supply

[Himmelhand]

I can say that this has moved my and at least one of my friends' interest of the game from "might buy despite questionable design decisions" to "I want off Johan's Wild Ride." Unless this whole fuel thing turns around it turns the game into a farce, in my opinion, especially in combination with the many other compromises the game seems to have made in the name of "accessibility" (read: gaminess). Were earlier incarnations of this series flawed? Yes, absolutely. But it seems to me that this one might be even more so, in new and disappointing ways.

 

[rafan]

want fuel, mod it, it won't be hard.

1.Make equipment called fuel made from oil.
2.Add fuel as equipment to all battalions that need it.
3. Set right attrition levels for it. (in battle, moving, standing around)
4. Balance out resources, number of factories, production costs for all countries, and keep it up too date with all patches and expansions.

You want it do it.

Im perfectly happy with the current system.

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

I can say that this has moved my and at least one of my friends' interest of the game from "might buy despite questionable design decisions" to "I want off Johan's Wild Ride." Unless this whole fuel thing turns around it turns the game into a farce, in my opinion, especially in combination with the many other compromises the game seems to have made in the name of "accessibility" (read: gaminess). Were earlier incarnations of this series flawed? Yes, absolutely. But it seems to me that this one might be even more so, in new and disappointing ways.

I also fear it will be a gamey sequel but I still want to try it for myself first and then make up a definitive opinion about HOI4. And if I don't like it, what's the worst that can happen? A net loss of 50 $. A small risk to take for what could potentially be my favorite game of the next decade.

 

[JamesJameson]

Well I guess I used words in a confusing way, I don't mean too but I never said they couldnt be disappointed. I said that they are making big speculations based off there understanding of the game. I'm trying to help them see that there is a really good possibility that it wont be as bad as they speculate it to be.

As far as what I like and love..yeah. Anyway, I have been gaming since the 14.4k modem was a hot thing to have. The first games I started on where pure text based games called MUD. I don't have a very big game collection, and the reason is because I always watch someone else play the game before I buy it. After playing HOI3 and watching the ALPHA of HOI4 I can promise you that I love the game. Even if they abstracted it more then it is now, I would still love it. That being said I have missed out on some games that I might have liked. I never would have gotten EUIV or CK2 if I had not played HOI3. I was getting CK2 pushed on me a long time ago on release and I watched game play and did not want to play it. After playing Hoi3, I got Vicky 2, then EU IV, then CK2.... that happens to also be the order in which i have spent time on them as well. Hoi3 being the most played. Speaking of this, since it's completely off the subject of the thread. What Paradox games you playing currently? Want to play?

 

[Joppos]

The issue is coupling the supply system with resources system. Fuel is modeled like any other resource, but the fuel supply would require a different definition (it would need stockpiles, basically).

Indeed. It is coupled in such a way that a lack of oil translates into a lack of vehicles, which is very problematic. Getting oil to fuel thousands of vehicles is not the same as getting oil to build thousands of vehicles.

 

[Axe99]

want fuel, mod it, it won't be hard.

1.Make equipment called fuel made from oil.
2.Add fuel as equipment to all battalions that need it.
3. Set right attrition levels for it. (in battle, moving, standing around)
4. Balance out resources, number of factories, production costs for all countries, and keep it up too date with all patches and expansions.

You want it do it.

Im perfectly happy with the current system.

Which is exactly what most of us hope to do . That said, there's still a few question marks over how moddable it is - not as equipment (we know we can mod equipment in) but whether it will be easy enough to adjust AI production files and the like to cope with producing sensible amounts of it, and whether the AI will be bright enough to know if it needs to conquer more oil for the future. For an MP game it's easy, I just hope that the reason it's not in the base game is because the AI couldn't cope, or something like that - as while the game is very moddable, there's always a level of AI behaviour and direction that sits in the engine that'll be outside modders control.

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

Which is exactly what most of us hope to do . That said, there's still a few question marks over how moddable it is - not as equipment (we know we can mod equipment in) but whether it will be easy enough to adjust AI production files and the like to cope with producing sensible amounts of it, and whether the AI will be bright enough to know if it needs to conquer more oil for the future. For an MP game it's easy, I just hope that the reason it's not in the base game is because the AI couldn't cope, or something like that - as while the game is very moddable, there's always a level of AI behaviour and direction that sits in the engine that'll be outside modders control.

Agreed. The AI underperforming with a navy fuel mod is a very grave concern.

 

[Nicolas I]

want fuel, mod it, it won't be hard.

1.Make equipment called fuel made from oil.
2.Add fuel as equipment to all battalions that need it.
3. Set right attrition levels for it. (in battle, moving, standing around)
4. Balance out resources, number of factories, production costs for all countries, and keep it up too date with all patches and expansions.

You want it do it.

Im perfectly happy with the current system.

If it is that simple, why did they not implement it in the game ?

 

[ringhloth]

If it is that simple, why did they not implement it in the game ?

Because saying something and making something are two completely different processes, especially in game design?

 

[rafan]

If it is that simple, why did they not implement it in the game ?

1. Because they made better system, for me and many other players. Who dont care about fuel. For gameplay purpose there is no difference between supplies and fuel. if you lack either you won't be able to fight so there is no reason to make them different.

2. Do you even know how much work would be balancing such thing of? They could never get HOI3 resource-logistics-oil system to work completely even after all those years. And im perfectly content to let them concentrate on other things that trying to balance fuel.

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

1. Because they made better system, for me and many other players. Who dont care about fuel. For gameplay purpose there is no difference between supplies and fuel. if you lack either you won't be able to fight so there is no reason to make them different.

2. Do you even know how much work would be balancing such thing of? They could never get HOI3 resource-logistics-oil system to work completely even after all those years. And im perfectly content to let them concentrate on other things that trying to balance fuel.

wow, considering the HOI series have always been about historical realism because that's what us harcore ww2 strategy players enjoy, omitting a very historical aspect of WW2 is not cool in my book. This conflict was a true Resource War and to ignore supplies/oil, which was like...the lifeblood of your armies does not make much sense. I think navies will run on a anti-natural scheme that was not true of them. Some navies during the war sometimes could not even perform sorties for lack of oil ! That's very important in a strategy game that includes navies of WW2 dont you think?

Dude, if I ever wanted a simple WW2 game, I'll just play some Call of Duty or some World of Warships. I came to Paradox for hard, detailed and historical games. Capiche?

Sure, they never got the HOI3 supply system quite right but that's no excuse to not make it much better in HOI4. Paradox still has time to tweak the system, let's hope they do it. This issue is not superficial and not about variants, rivers, counters or sprites, it's about a fundamental aspect of how 20th century wars were carried out and how to accurately reflect that in a grand strategy historical 20th century videogame model

Its not like the Japanese ever said: ''okay leet's billed da Yamato, its gong two need X amount of steeel and we reserve 100,000 tons of oil aside because that's what's gong two use in its liftime. Banzai! Toyota! '' lol

 

[Nicolas I]

1. Because they made better system, for me and many other players. Who dont care about fuel. For gameplay purpose there is no difference between supplies and fuel. if you lack either you won't be able to fight so there is no reason to make them different...

As there is no supplies and no fuel in the game, you will be able to fight if you lack either. There is a "supply limit" who gives you access to equipments, not supplies.

You won't be able to fight if you lack equipments (with oil included in them), I could swallow that, except that ships curiously work without equipments (short of a whole ship). They could at least repair this incoherency.

 

[KiwiNoob]

If it is that simple, why did they not implement it in the game ?

Because if you make fuel 'equipment' then people will stockpile it like crazy pre war and we'll be in the same mess as HOI3.

The 'supply' mechanic is a good one and oil should use it but have it's own independent system (so a unit could have 'supply' but no oil or vice versa)

Would look like this: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ent-diary-supply.891122/page-33#post-20228331

 

[Nicolas I]

Because if you make fuel 'equipment' then people will stockpile it like crazy pre war and we'll be in the same mess as HOI3.

I was not talking of fuel equipment but ships equipment, as ships are the only unit not using equipment short of a whole ship. They also could put a limit to stockpiling as they should have in HOI3.

Your proposition for including fuel inside the proposed system is really great. The proposed system is good in many aspects, it just lack fuel.

 

[KiwiNoob]

ships equipment, as ships are the only unit not using equipment short of a whole ship.

Sorry, I thought your reply was in response to:

want fuel, mod it, it won't be hard.

1.Make equipment called fuel made from oil.
2.Add fuel as equipment to all battalions that need it.
3. Set right attrition levels for it. (in battle, moving, standing around)
4. Balance out resources, number of factories, production costs for all countries, and keep it up too date with all patches and expansions.

To clarify. I don't think 'equipment' that requires oil to produce and adding it as a requirement for divisions is the answer to the oil issue as it creates the same stockpile issue as HOI3

It's also reliant on ships being able to consume equipment in the first place which may not be supported in the game engine.

If you're just tanking about some kind of attrition mechanic for ships then that's cool - just ignore me

 

[Had a mom]

want fuel, mod it, it won't be hard.

1.Make equipment called fuel made from oil.
2.Add fuel as equipment to all battalions that need it.
3. Set right attrition levels for it. (in battle, moving, standing around)
4. Balance out resources, number of factories, production costs for all countries, and keep it up too date with all patches and expansions.

You want it do it.

Im perfectly happy with the current system.

Instead of resorting to the never ending "mod it in" argument, you should come over to the megathread and explain why you will be perfectly happy with the new system, despite of that it introduces at least 10 new serious game play related problems to the series.

People said the exat same when Podcat declared that transport planes are now abstracted and will have their function replaced by bombers: "dude, you can just mod it in". Thanks to the efforts and knowledge of the community, Paradox later decided to change that and make transports their own category like in the previous three HOI games.

1. Because they made better system, for me and many other players. Who dont care about fuel. For gameplay purpose there is no difference between supplies and fuel. if you lack either you won't be able to fight so there is no reason to make them different.

Then you better start presenting arguments on why the new system is so much better over in the megathread...

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

the new system introduces at least 10 new serious game play related problems to the series.

woah, what would those be HaM?

I have noticed a few myself but not that many. Please enlighten us.

 

[Had a mom]

woah, what would those be HaM?

Well, this is a list compiled by No Idea and myself from the Megathread. Some of them are a bit over overlapping but yeah.

1. Ships especially are unbalanced by this as they don't suffer 'attrition'. Japan could build a hundred battleships pre-war using oil imports from the SU or US then when war breaks out and they are cut off - no biggie, BB's don't use oil.
2. It's unbalanced post-battle. The country that performs well and has lots of planes/tanks/ships left no requires no oil even though they still have lots of planes/tanks/ships. The country that performs poorly now requires lots of oil (for replacements) even though they no longer have any planes/tanks/ships.
3. Capturing a countries oil supply wont have a dramatic effect for potentially years as anything already produced is free to run for life. Players will abuse this and use equipment to effectively stockpile oil. Japan loses virtually all of it's oil production? Oh well - business as usual for their navy, airforce and armour divisions
4. It kills the idea of a naval reserve. Why bother keeping a reserve in port when one of the main advantages of it was that it conserved fuel? With that gone there is no reason not to have the whole fleet as big as you can possibly make it sailing around.
5. The amount of oil needed should reflect the standing size of the force not how quickly it's destroyed. If a country has 1000 active tanks they should use 1000 tanks worth of oil. At the moment if they have 1000 tanks dying slowly they only need 500 oil, if they have 1000 tanks dying quickly they need 2000 oil. Even though the whole time the number of active tanks remains the same.
6. Because planes/tanks/ships (especially ships - running theme ) don't require oil to run large countries could produce units and then give them to small countries even though those countries couldn't realistically use them. I like the idea that New Zealand can field a fleet of Battleships imported from the US even though we have nothing but sheep to fuel them with but it's not very realistic. (NZ is a good example because we had ok 'supply' but it was only for infantry/cavalry units. We had practically no oil in the grand scheme of things)
7. You cant plan ahead. You cant build 10,000 tanks as Greece and then invade Romania to get the oil to run them. It means pre-war oil production is vastly more important than capturing or maintaining oil production during the war."
8. Technologically savvy countries such as Germany and the UK will get an unfair advantage as they will suffer fewer losses and thus need less oil. Not so technologically savvy countries such as Soviet, Hungary, Italy and China will be on the disadvantaged end.
9. Countries that are likely to suffer oil shortages will have the most important of their oil consuming units categorically techrushed by the player. Losing units means losing oil and this cannot be afforded if oil is to be scarce.
10. The player will feel the need to micromanage his most oil consuming forces if he is short on oil to avoid losses that cannot be replaced due to lack of oil.
11. As your armed forces run on fairy dust, the strategic importance of oil will greatly diminish. All oil consuming units are oil per se, meaning everyone can do with relatively little oil as long as they don't take too many losses. Some wars, such as the Abyssinian war for Italy and the Norwegian campaign for Germany can be fought without consuming any oil at all.
12. As armies run on fairy dust, also the tactical importance of oil will greatly diminish. There will no longer be an incentive to cut of oil supplies to the enemy so that his air force in given province is grounded or his tanks stopped dead in their tracks..
13. The German, Italian and Japanese AI is screwed. As always, they take huge losses against the human player, only that this time they cannot replace them due to oil shortages. This is especially true if you are playing as the US or Soviet and can deny the axis oil (equipment) though trade.
14. Instead of stockpiling oil, players will now stockpile equipment, arguably leading to even weirder and more unhistorical games than in HOI3.

 

[Joppos]

I guess it's overlapped by several points in your list, but i consider the fact that oil shortage now equals vehicle shortage warrants a point for itself. Fuel can be relatively quickly accessed, but building vehicles take a lot of time. Having fronts that are actually just starved for fuel, also be starved for vehicles is a really big one. Germany won't have a lot of passive mechanized divisions on the eastern front, they will simply just have been emptied of vehicles.

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

Making fuel an equipment that can be stored will defeat all the purpose of the game design. And it would be very lazy. We need fuel as an flow, the same as strategic resources.

It would be no difference between storing equipment to fuell the tanks and storing barrels. The only difference would be in the name description.