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EU4 Development Diary - 11th February 2016

Hello and Welcome to another development diary for Europa Universalis IV. This time we take a look at a concept that neither we nor you have not been entirely happy with in any previous Paradox game: Espionage.

In the next major patch, we have completely reworked how espionage works. No longer is every spy action done by just sending a diplomat that will perform the action for as long as it is there, but now there is a concept of spy networks.

You now send a diplomat on a mission to a country to build up a spy network. The network can reach up to 100% power, and that power can be used to execute spy actions, such as sow discontent, fabricate claims, etc.

Spy Offense has been renamed to Spy Network Construction, and determines how quickly you build spy networks in another nation.

Spy Defence has been renamed to “Foreign Spy Detection”, and now determine the chance of detecting hostile network buildups and disrupting it. A disrupted network will lose some of its power, and also make it impossible for you continue improving it for a time period.

Performing an action is instant, and as long as you have the power, success is automatic. However, networks that are not actively built will slowly decay.

You can also target other nations networks with counterespionage, to actively reduce their capabilities of their network.

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There are three passive benefits to having a strong spy network in another nation. First of all, if you have the Cossacks expansion and picked the Espionage Ideas, you have access to Study Technology, which is no longer a source of power, but instead a possibility to reduce technology costs by up 30% from having networks in nations ahead of you (the size of the discount depends on how far ahead they are in each tech). Secondly, the new expansion grants up to 20% higher siege ability against nations where you have a spy network. Finally, the new expansion gives you up to 10% less AE in that country.

Of course, all of those scale with the power of the spy network.


Espionage now contains the following actions.

Fabricate Claim: Gives you a claim on an eligible province for a low cost.
Justify Trade Conflict: Gives you a trade conflict CB if conditions are applicable for a low cost.
Support Rebels: Selected rebel faction gets +10% chance to progress towards revolt each month for 5 years for a very high cost. It will also cost a fair amount of cash to support ythe troops.


The following requires the Espionage Ideagroup.

Sow Discontent, applies +3 unrest and reduces legitimacy, republican tradition, devotion or unity for 5 years for a high cost
Infiltrate Administration: Lifts Fog of War over the target country for 5 years for a medium cost.
Sabotage Reputation: -3 diplomatic reputation for 5 years for a medium cost.
Agitate for Liberty: Selected subject has +25 liberty desire that lasts 5 years for a high cost.


There is also four new actions enabled by the new expansion, two of those we’ll tell you about here, two others are for future development diaries.

Sabotage Recruitment: Gives 20% less manpower and Sailor recovery speed for 5 years for a medium cost.
Slander Merchant: Reduces Global Trade Power by 33% for 5 years for a high cost.

Of course actions that require previously expansions will still require those expansions.

Next week we’ll be back with a look at Africa.
 
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Some people might think that just because it's been that way in the past we should continue with things like supporting rebels or fabricating claims with diplomats rather than spies. why? why do we have diplomats, missionaries, colonists, and merchants and the only one that is remotely interesting is diplomats? the others are fire and forget, nothing to manage, and with the missionary is often sitting unused. with diplomats, it's actively looking into what they are doing constantly. I understand that there are only so many diplomats to limit the players actions but a lack of spies would similarly limit a player. In fact if there was only one at a time (without proper ideas) you could only focus your efforts on expanding really on one state at at time, at least in the very beginning. A spy would be a very valuable and interesting addition to the game without hamstringing a player's diplomacy
But why shouldn't they feel that way?

You have to look at it from other perspectives as well. Half the time I don't even know what to do with all my diplomats. If you're adamant on decoupling diplomats from spies then you should also reduce their numbers as well, otherwise they'll lose their value long before mid-game.

You said it yourself, often times the missionary is just sitting unused. After a certain a point in the game you just get tired of improving relations with some random nation just to have them do something.
 
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But why shouldn't they feel that way?

You have to look at it from other perspectives as well. Half the time I don't even know what to do with all my diplomats. If you're adamant on decoupling diplomats from spies then you should also reduce their numbers as well, otherwise they'll lose their value long before mid-game.

You said it yourself, often times the missionary is just sitting unused. After a certain a point in the game you just get tired of improving relations with some random nation just to have them do something.

There is always something to be done with diplomats currently. Adding more strain on them seems dubious at best and miserable at worst.
 
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Spy networks was actually exactly what I had planned to add to my mod, so I'm glad that I won't have to code this up myself :D. I'm interested to hear about the new espionage actions. I'm going to be a little disappointed if assassinating a ruler or heir isn't one of them.
 
Regarding missionaries, perhaps we could have an option to send them to foreign provinces and try to convert the population there as a way to push for religious unrest. Although there is a chance that it could aggressive expansion. We could send missionaries to the rest of the world as well, maybe Christianize parts of India, Japan, China, etc. as a way for them to be more receptive of Christian Europe and to allow trade (maybe Christian merchants can't go in as they are a foreign religion so we got to convert them so they can allow us to conduct commerce).
It would be a great improvement over Japan's scripted Christian events. I'm always for things like that being done dynamically, assuming it can be done well.
 
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While we are dealing with naval stuff in this new DLC, there should be changes done to how protect trade and privateering/privacy works. Protect trade is too abstract, perhaps the way it presents trade power should be changed into something more easily understood like total amount of profit you can make from the route if you protect it.

Privateering and Piracy feels superficial. It also feels lacking in the Caribbean. Maybe individual ships that make too much profit for you can turn rogue?
 
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I still think all the actions that require the Espionage idea group should be available to everyone, Espionage ideas should just make them a lot more cheaper/effective.

I agree, I still think most people will not bother with taking the idea. Where if all the actions are available at least people could use the actions, rather then them being pointless features.
 
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Regarding missionaries, perhaps we could have an option to send them to foreign provinces and try to convert the population there as a way to push for religious unrest. Although there is a chance that it could aggressive expansion. We could send missionaries to the rest of the world as well, maybe Christianize parts of India, Japan, China, etc. as a way for them to be more receptive of Christian Europe and to allow trade (maybe Christian merchants can't go in as they are a foreign religion so we got to convert them so they can allow us to conduct commerce).

I came up with a preliminary idea about this in the Buff Catholicism thread:

I've given the whole 'Send Missionary to other countries' idea a bit more thought, and this is what I've managed to come up with as a preliminary idea;
  • You can establish Mission Treaties with other nations in the same way you would in asking for fleet basing rights; it occupies a Dip slot, you pay a monthly fee and the sender's opinion of the recipient increases, and they must be within colonizing/coring range. Acceptance is reliant on opinion and realpolitik (allies, friendly and threatened nations will be more likely to accept, while Protectorates will not be able to refuse. It can also be demanded in treaties).
  • If they accept, you can send a missionary to convert their provinces that are already not your religion. Any bonus' one would gain upon successfully converting a province (PI, for example), would still apply.
  • To avoid this being far too one-sided, the country that accepts will gain a bonus to trade power and a tech cost reduction (a -2.5% interval for every level they are ahead in a specific category) while the treaty is active. Likewise, Stability, Decisions and Inquisitor's effects on missionary strength will not apply while in a foreign country, and you can only have one missionary in a foreign country at a time.
  • There will be events that can affect your relations with that nation, progress of your missionary, the province he's in, etc.
  • If you have the proper ideas in espionage, you can send a missionary without a treaty with the threat of discovery and expulsion hanging over his head. Naturally, relations will be damaged if he is.
  • Abrahamic and Buddhist countries will be more likely to send missionaries. Pagans will be less likely.
Opinions?
 
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This sounds great. Espionage certainly seems much more useful and interesting with those changes.
However, I think your proposed changes will "fix" espionage itself without fixing the espionage idea group, and the - by now famously underpowered - idea group was in far more need of improvement than espionage as such.
While the rework sounds really cool, it seems to me that none of the best benefits of espionage are exclusive to the espionage idea group.

I mean, it seems to me that all of these spy-actions/passive spy-benefits are stronger any of the idea group exclusive spy actions (the list itself is not ordered):
Up to 20 % siege ability
Up to 10 % AE reduction with the target
Up to 30 % tech cost reduction (to be fair, it was a bit unclear to me, whether that was espionage idea group exclusive)
Slander Merchant
Sabotage recruiment
Fabricate claim

In other words, it seems to me that I can get all the best of benefits of espionage, without taking the espionage idea group. So while these changes will make espionage a good deal more interesting and useful, it seems to me that the idea group will still be pretty subpar. Imho, you should make some of the new cool stuff idea group exclusive, like the increse in siege ability or Slander merchants/ sabotage recruitment instead of the pretty lack-lustre sabotage reputation and sow discontent, which I just cannot see choosing espionage ideas in order to access.

Of course I realize I have not seen the full changes to espionage itself or the idea group, but tihs is the impression I was left with.

Tl;dr: These changes make espionage itself more important, but after these changes are made espionage ideas will probably still suck.

Espionage ideas can be quite useful - when you have 3 powerful neighbours all allied together, destroying their reputations and fermenting revolts is a good way to avoid endless 3 front wars.
 
And again it's ridiculous to have tiny Odoyev principality and do not have more significant Rostov principality

:(

As I said in thread on the subject in the Suggestions subforum, Rostov was in a weird situation at the game's start. The principality had been split in 1328, and the ruler of one of the halves had sold his share to Moscow in 1425. The other half was technically still independent until 1474, but by the time the game starts, the remaining prince was basically being told what to do by the Muscovite representative permanently in residence at his court. Moreover, I don't think I've ever found a map that properly shows the split, never mind which half was sold to Moscow first.
 
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I'm going to be a little disappointed if assassinating a ruler or heir isn't one of them.
If they added that, expanded dynasties and rulers should be up on the table too.
 
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If they added that, expanded dynasties and rulers should be up on the table too.
That would be awesome if it was, though it certainly won't be happening anytime soon (if ever).
 
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I agree, I still think most people will not bother with taking the idea. Where if all the actions are available at least people could use the actions, rather then them being pointless features.

Yeah I've taken them a couple of times and I saw no noticeable change to my game whereas if, instead, they had made the idea group buffs to those unlockable actions then it might make them worthwhile.

I can only think that having those actions available to everyone would possibly create another potential AI problem with possible dissent/damage rep spam
 
About the fear that small animist countries in Africa could agitate for liberty in big empires colonies, break Spain from the Pope, etc... I would expect that the spy network (and the new spy offense-spy defence) would prevent that, by making it next to impossible for such a country to build a spy network in a much larger one. This would make sense and be useful gameplaywise at the same time.
 
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There is always something to be done with diplomats currently.
I never said there wasn't, I only implied they start losing their useful as the game progress.
An extreme example: I can always start eating snails and roots if need be.

Adding more strain on them seems dubious at best and miserable at worst.
What strain? Removing 1 diplomat to be used as "spy" will give you what you wanted and retain the [relative] current balance of the game.
I admit it's just semantics, but still... you'll get your spy.
 
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I never said there wasn't - I can always start eating snails and roots if need be - I only implied they start losing their useful as the game progress.


What strain? Removing 1 diplomat to be used as "spy" will give you what you wanted and retain the current balance of the game.
I admit it's just semantics, but still... you'll get your spy.

How many diplomats do you normally have in game?
 
How many diplomats do you normally have in game?
Depending on nation and government rank, by mid-to-late game I have ~3.
Again, they are extremely helpful when I'm small. But after I grow, I start looking for random nations to improve relations with or re-fabricate claims I haven't rightfully liberated yet and etc.
 
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Depending on nation and government rank, by mid-to-late game I have ~3.
Again, they are extremely helpful when I'm small. But after I grow, I start looking for random nations to improve relations with or re-fabricate claims I haven't rightfully liberated yet and etc.

K fair.
 
What strain? Removing 1 diplomat to be used as "spy" will give you what you wanted and retain the current balance of the game.
I admit it's just semantics, but still... you'll get your spy.
Removing one diplomat to be used as spy does not retain the current balance of the game, because sometimes all my diplomats are diplomatting.
 
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