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Nerva

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Since Monday was June 6th I decided to watch The Longest Day, which I'd watched several times growing up but probably not the entire thing in one sitting. Rewatching it, I was struck by the introduction of Jeffrey Hunter's character on a landing ship, where he's telling the guy next to him, rather elliptically (due to the censorship of the era), how his wife that married him before he shipped out now wants something else (either a divorce or a boyfriend, it wasn't clearly explained). Then Hunter leaves, and a friend of the guy next to him asks him who Hunter was, and the guy responds that he has no idea -- he'd never seen him before. It struck me at the time that Hunter's character might be a reference to the Unknown Soldier.

We catch up again with Hunter's character on Omaha beach, where he says he is Sgt. John H. Fuller, just before Robert Mitchum promotes him to Lieutenant ("whether you like it or not!") and Fuller proceeds to carry out what is arguably the most heroic deed in the movie, setting bangalore torpedoes under fire, then returning to stuff explosives under the concrete barrier, and finally being shot down just before making it back to safety.

I've googled the name John H. Fuller several times and all I've found is a reference to a guy that served in the Pacific that got a silver star, so I can't imagine it's the same guy. Does anyone know if Fuller was depicted in the book as a real person, or was his character an invention of the movie, to represent the heroic sacrifices of all the guys that we've never heard of?
 
Not an answer to your question, but a great piece of trivia about this film.

The British actor Richard Todd is one of the stars of this film, playing Major Howard, the commander of the paratroopers who captured Pegasus Bridge

cf9cef57ec5ba1e7c5a4b6c960b09c59.jpg

Todd as Major Howard in the film

However, Richard Todd really was a paratrooper in WWII, and was in fact at Pegasus Bridge during that operation. At one point in the film, the actor Todd speaks directly to the character of himself.

article-1233181-077878F9000005DC-704_224x423.jpg

Actual WWII Captain Todd
 
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I'd imagine invented. Whilst a lot of the characters in the film are historical, the lower ranked ones are probably filled out by fictional characters.

I'm sure you could do better than google for research though. Are the US service records available online? You might also be able to find casualty lists in relevant reports, try the Combined Arms Digital Library and see if they've got anything on 1st or 29th Division or supporting units at Omaha.
 
Since Monday was June 6th I decided to watch The Longest Day, which I'd watched several times growing up but probably not the entire thing in one sitting. Rewatching it, I was struck by the introduction of Jeffrey Hunter's character on a landing ship, where he's telling the guy next to him, rather elliptically (due to the censorship of the era), how his wife that married him before he shipped out now wants something else (either a divorce or a boyfriend, it wasn't clearly explained). Then Hunter leaves, and a friend of the guy next to him asks him who Hunter was, and the guy responds that he has no idea -- he'd never seen him before. It struck me at the time that Hunter's character might be a reference to the Unknown Soldier.

We catch up again with Hunter's character on Omaha beach, where he says he is Sgt. John H. Fuller, just before Robert Mitchum promotes him to Lieutenant ("whether you like it or not!") and Fuller proceeds to carry out what is arguably the most heroic deed in the movie, setting bangalore torpedoes under fire, then returning to stuff explosives under the concrete barrier, and finally being shot down just before making it back to safety.

I've googled the name John H. Fuller several times and all I've found is a reference to a guy that served in the Pacific that got a silver star, so I can't imagine it's the same guy. Does anyone know if Fuller was depicted in the book as a real person, or was his character an invention of the movie, to represent the heroic sacrifices of all the guys that we've never heard of?

The guy had a nice career. Started the day as a sargeant, got a brevet promotion to Leautinant. Then became Jesus before becoming the first captain of the Starship Enterprise.

Not bad for an engineer not named Scotty.

But if Sgt. Fuller had actually been shot while stringing a demo charge to break a roadblock off Bloody Omaha, they'd have pinned a medal on him and that could be tracked. If you didn't find it, he is probably camera fodder.
 
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Not an answer to your question, but a great piece of trivia about this film.

The British actor Richard Todd is one of the stars of this film, playing Major Howard, the commander of the paratroopers who captured Pegasus Bridge

cf9cef57ec5ba1e7c5a4b6c960b09c59.jpg

Todd as Major Howard in the film

However, Richard Todd really was a paratrooper in WWII, and was in fact at Pegasus Bridge during that operation. At one point in the film, the actor Todd speaks directly to the character of himself.

article-1233181-077878F9000005DC-704_224x423.jpg

Actual WWII Captain Todd

Hold until relieved, hold until relieved.

One of the stupider acts the British Army committed was not taking Howard's elite glider command and their attached glider pilots, pulling them out of Normandy intact and use it later, maybe during Market Garden, to more effect than just augmenting other units. That was a truly elite unit.

I still love the stories that if you drive past Pegasus Bridge, Major Howard will be waiting for you outside the pub waiting to tell you the story in detail.
 
Hold until relieved, hold until relieved.

One of the stupider acts the British Army committed was not taking Howard's elite glider command and their attached glider pilots, pulling them out of Normandy intact and use it later, maybe during Market Garden, to more effect than just augmenting other units. That was a truly elite unit.

I still love the stories that if you drive past Pegasus Bridge, Major Howard will be waiting for you outside the pub waiting to tell you the story in detail.

They did pull the glider pilots out. As for the infantry element, it was nothing special, just a reinforced company (albeit a good one) with some special mission training.

Due to time constraints/other elements of the Market plan such a mission would not have been possible to Arnhem.

Also, it's often forgotten that Howard's mission was an exceptional event in the British history of such strikes. The two other operations of the like up to that time (Ponte Grande in Sicily and the Merville landings) had both ended in a failure of the coup de main element.
 
I think the geography at Arnhem, with the bridge being in the middle of a city, would preclude the use of a Pegasus-style coup de main attack as they could not land close enough to achieve surprise
 
I think the geography at Arnhem, with the bridge being in the middle of a city, would preclude the use of a Pegasus-style coup de main attack as they could not land close enough to achieve surprise

Arnhem was the bridge too far, it was unrealistic to begin with, particularly with heavy armor being held in reserve nearby that was ignored so the plan could continue. It was an all or nothing gambit, and only FM Montgomery saw it as highly successful.

It's net effect is that the American ability to punch through the Saar while the Germans were still in full retreat and unable to reorganize becomes a moot point whose theoretical viability is blown massively out of proportion by the 'historians' who think the History Channel is one long documentary. The same 'hystorians' who actually believe Patton crossed the Rhine holding the Spear of Longinus in his right hand rather than stopping to take a piss as he actually did. They never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
 
t
They did pull the glider pilots out. As for the infantry element, it was nothing special, just a reinforced company (albeit a good one) with some special mission training.

Due to time constraints/other elements of the Market plan such a mission would not have been possible to Arnhem.

Also, it's often forgotten that Howard's mission was an exceptional event in the British history of such strikes. The two other operations of the like up to that time (Ponte Grande in Sicily and the Merville landings) had both ended in a failure of the coup de main element.

It is speculation brought up by the author of Pegasus Bridge that asks whether or not Howard's unit, intact with its original glider pilots, could have been used to secure one of Market Garden's chain of bridges that had to be captured before the armor could even think of arriving at Arnhem.
 
I think the geography at Arnhem, with the bridge being in the middle of a city, would preclude the use of a Pegasus-style coup de main attack as they could not land close enough to achieve surprise
It's also important to note that Arnhem Bridge was 'captured' (as in one side of it, and notably the far side by XXX corps perspective) intact. As Andre says, it's the ones on the way there where you could really use the help (e.g. the northern side of Nijmegen, or Son, or Grave...).

It still doesn't fix the logistics problem of going even a step beyond Arnhem using a single road to supply a corps...
 
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It's also important to note that Arnhem Bridge was 'captured' (as in one side of it, and notably the far side by XXX corps perspective) intact. As Andre says, it's the ones on the way there where you could really use the help (e.g. the northern side of Nijmegen, or Son, or Grave...).

It still doesn't fix the logistics problem of going even a step beyond Arnhem using a single road to supply a corps...

"This is the wide part of the road", one of my favorite lines from the movie, which really is really a pretty decent portrayal of the campaign. As, say, 'The Battle of the Bulge' where the Ardennes Forest was a wide open plain in Spain with some fake snow tossed about for effect.
 
I think the geography at Arnhem, with the bridge being in the middle of a city, would preclude the use of a Pegasus-style coup de main attack as they could not land close enough to achieve surprise

There are (ok, were) three bridges at Arnhem. Going West-East the first is the railway bridge South of Oosterbeek which was blown up by the Germans as 2 PARA reached it. The next is a pontoon bridge in the town, just before the Rhine changes course towards the sea. At the time it was dismantled and the center span removed. Then you have the main road bridge (destroyed after Market Garden and replaced after the war in the same style, now named the John Frost Bridge after the commander of 2 PARA).

Of these, the railway bridge is in open terrain (polderland), the pontoon and road bridges have one end polderland and the other urbanised. Terrain did not rule out a coup de main. Indeed, one might even have landed gliders North of the roadbridge by exploiting the open area directly North of it (essentially a series of parks/embankments around the road ramp).

Arnhem was the bridge too far, it was unrealistic to begin with, particularly with heavy armor being held in reserve nearby that was ignored so the plan could continue. It was an all or nothing gambit, and only FM Montgomery saw it as highly successful.

It's net effect is that the American ability to punch through the Saar while the Germans were still in full retreat and unable to reorganize becomes a moot point whose theoretical viability is blown massively out of proportion by the 'historians' who think the History Channel is one long documentary. The same 'hystorians' who actually believe Patton crossed the Rhine holding the Spear of Longinus in his right hand rather than stopping to take a piss as he actually did. They never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

The best analysis of this is Ritchie, Arnhem: Myth and Reality and Buckley, Monty's Men. However, I'd suggest that any negative effect on operations elsewhere was minimal (save in the Scheldt). The prevailing conditions of September simply didn't make a strategic operation practical.

t


It is speculation brought up by the author of Pegasus Bridge that asks whether or not Howard's unit, intact with its original glider pilots, could have been used to secure one of Market Garden's chain of bridges that had to be captured before the armor could even think of arriving at Arnhem.

Stephen Ambrose? Quite the poor writer IIRC. Certainly his D-Day book was a load of horse manure.

As for the question in hand, the answer is simply a no. The glider pilots were withdrawn, and Howard's unit was not something in itself so special. Such an argument also ignores that the Orne-Caen Canal operation was planned intensely for a long period. Market Garden meanwhile was planned over a period of days. The real problem however was the operational scheduling, which made a coup de main impossible. Hence why these were a feature of Comet (which had an earlier dropping time than Market). Basically you would have had a small force of gliders either descending on the bridge in daylight (suicide and without the element of surprise unlikely to succeed), or going in at night and waiting several hours for relief.

It's also important to note that Arnhem Bridge was 'captured' (as in one side of it, and notably the far side by XXX corps perspective) intact. As Andre says, it's the ones on the way there where you could really use the help (e.g. the northern side of Nijmegen, or Son, or Grave...).

It still doesn't fix the logistics problem of going even a step beyond Arnhem using a single road to supply a corps...

Grave did see a coup de main operation, IIRC by H Company of the 504th PIR. The problem with the other objectives was largely one of overstretch. The classic appreciation of Market Garden is that there were 4 bridges involved (Son, Grave, Nijmegen, Arnhem). Really there were far more, from South to North; Valkenswaard, Eindhoven, Son/Best, Sint-Oedenrode, Veghel, Grave, Heumen, Nijmegen, and finally Arnhem. In many cases these obstacles had multiple bridges for the airborne to capture. Because of that it simply wasn't possible for them to take all their objectives. Take the 82nd for example. Grave was taken, as was Heumen, but due to other concerns the Nijmegen bridges couldn't be seriously attempted until it was too late.

"This is the wide part of the road", one of my favorite lines from the movie, which really is really a pretty decent portrayal of the campaign. As, say, 'The Battle of the Bulge' where the Ardennes Forest was a wide open plain in Spain with some fake snow tossed about for effect.

It's a good film, but its portrayal of events is somewhat off. Monty is nowhere to be seen and thus escapes blame, Browning receives an utter tarring, as do the RAF planners, the British Army is portrayed as a bunch of tea drinking sloths, and Urquhart and 1st Airborne are portrayed as far more competent than they really were.
 
A coup de main style glider assault like on pegasus bridge would have been doomed anyway if the dropzones for the paratroops had remained the same. There weren't enough planes to land the whole airlanding brigade at the bridge on the first day anyway.

The 2nd Ox and Buck Light Infantry wasn't more elite than any other infantry batalion in the British forces. The only difference was that they where transported in gliders. But so where the three batalions of the 1st airlanding brigade who landed at Arnhem.
 
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A coup de main style glider assault like on pegasus bridge would have been doomed anyway if the dropzones for the paratroops had remained the same. There weren't enough planes to land the whole airlanding brigade at the bridge on the first day anyway.

The 2nd Ox and Buck Light Infantry wasn't more elite than any other infantry batalion in the British forces. The only difference was that they where transported in gliders. But so where the three batalions of the 1st airlanding brigade who landed at Arnhem.

1st Parachute Brigade could (and indeed, in part did) have reached the bridge in a reasonable amount of time after dropping. It took 2 PARA until about H+5 to reach the roadbridge and secure the North end. That's when the poor effort made by the Brigade as a whole, misuse of reconnaissance elements, the distraction of the railway bridge is factored in, and most importantly the slow forming up of the Brigade is factored in.

Arguably the drop zones alone did not preclude a successful relief of the coup de main force, provided 1st Airborne acted promptly, surprise was achieved, and counter-attack was not too intensive.
 
1st Parachute Brigade could (and indeed, in part did) have reached the bridge in a reasonable amount of time after dropping. It took 2 PARA until about H+5 to reach the roadbridge and secure the North end. That's when the poor effort made by the Brigade as a whole, misuse of reconnaissance elements, the distraction of the railway bridge is factored in, and most importantly the slow forming up of the Brigade is factored in.

Arguably the drop zones alone did not preclude a successful relief of the coup de main force, provided 1st Airborne acted promptly, surprise was achieved, and counter-attack was not too intensive.


Your post cites "poor effort", "misuse", and "distraction".

Unless you have concrete evidence for this, I would suggest being much less judgmental. Even if things went badly, these negatives are unjustified, imho.
 
Your post cites "poor effort", "misuse", and "distraction".

Unless you have concrete evidence for this, I would suggest being much less judgmental. Even if things went badly, these negatives are unjustified, imho.

Certainly these accusations are supportable. Things were wrong with the plan from the ground up. This is the best map I can find to show the problems. Note that my point about the railway bridge is that it was a distraction from other objectives that slowed 2 PARA's advance somewhat; if a coup de main had been landed at the bridge then better progress could have been achieved by omitting it from 2 PARA's tasks at least temporarily.

Map1ParaPlan.gif


Here you can see how 1st Airborne planned to seize their objectives. Note that any flaws highlighted below are of course highlighted with regard to the constraints placed on 1st Airborne by the hugely overambitious objective assigned to it. However, even within this context there are a number of flaws.

Firstly we have the choice of 3 routes of advance, none really supporting each other. This had the effect of splitting up the 1st Parachute Brigade's power with the result that when resistance was encountered it could not be overcome by concerted action.

Then we have the problem of the misuse of the Reconnaissance Squadron. This was to be employed as a coup de main force, landing, unloading, and then driving to quickly seize the road bridge ahead of other forces. Unfortunately, and perhaps predictably, a few unarmoured jeeps were not capable of pushing through German opposition. The result was that the coup de main didn't work, but that the airborne advance was also denied crucial reconnaissance, this meant that enemy positions couldn't be steered around and ambushes were encountered. Such ambushes slowed progress and inflicted losses.

Then we have the problems encountered during the operation. For a start 1st Parachute Brigade was rather slow forming up and moving off the drop zones. This was something noted by both 1st Airborne's RE elements and the Germans in their post-battle appreciations. After this we see a general lack of coordination in the advance with the Brigade and a dislocation of overall command (in itself partly due to the plan). There was also the issue of motivation. This is not to suggest cowardice, but rather that 1st Parachute Brigade was somewhat lacking in drive on the 17th. In particular, once they had driven the German blocking force off to the North and reached the Hartenstein area (in Oosterbeek), 1 PARA and 3 PARA halted for the night. At this point they had been engaged for several hours, but had a clear path ahead of them, and might have reached the bridge.

The results of all this was that only a small force centered on 2 PARA actually reached the bridge, that this force was in itself dispersed, and that a small German force (16th SS Panzergrenadier Training and Replacement Battalion, comprising around 2 companies + support) was able to delay the rest of 1st Airborne until reinforcements arrived.

There are of course operational limitations and human factors to consider. But on the whole it would seem like 1st Parachute Brigade (and 1st Airborne as a whole) did not necessarily display the greatest competence or spirit on the 17th. Indeed, the division performed far better in a defensive role than it did in any offensive capacity.
 
Adding into a mystery, I've recently bought an old swiss watch Eterna Centenaire 61 with an engraved name behind it:
John H. Fuller 4350368... Does this person really exists??

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The same 'hystorians' who actually believe Patton crossed the Rhine holding the Spear of Longinus in his right hand rather than stopping to take a piss as he actually did. They never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
"Holding the Spear of Longinus" could very well have been Patton's colloquialism for taking a leak. :D
 
"Holding the Spear of Longinus" could very well have been Patton's colloquialism for taking a leak. :D

OK, i don't know how long it took you to come up with that one, I don't even remember writing this post. But it was worth the wait.
 
Since Monday was June 6th I decided to watch The Longest Day, which I'd watched several times growing up but probably not the entire thing in one sitting. Rewatching it, I was struck by the introduction of Jeffrey Hunter's character on a landing ship, where he's telling the guy next to him, rather elliptically (due to the censorship of the era), how his wife that married him before he shipped out now wants something else (either a divorce or a boyfriend, it wasn't clearly explained). Then Hunter leaves, and a friend of the guy next to him asks him who Hunter was, and the guy responds that he has no idea -- he'd never seen him before. It struck me at the time that Hunter's character might be a reference to the Unknown Soldier.

We catch up again with Hunter's character on Omaha beach, where he says he is Sgt. John H. Fuller, just before Robert Mitchum promotes him to Lieutenant ("whether you like it or not!") and Fuller proceeds to carry out what is arguably the most heroic deed in the movie, setting bangalore torpedoes under fire, then returning to stuff explosives under the concrete barrier, and finally being shot down just before making it back to safety.

I've googled the name John H. Fuller several times and all I've found is a reference to a guy that served in the Pacific that got a silver star, so I can't imagine it's the same guy. Does anyone know if Fuller was depicted in the book as a real person, or was his character an invention of the movie, to represent the heroic sacrifices of all the guys that we've never heard of?