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Sigwald

First Lieutenant
48 Badges
Jun 26, 2012
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So as anyone having restored the glorious Byzantine Empire as Greece and taken back the righteous Finnish lands as Sweden, I'm looking forward to Victoria 3.

But looking at the recent paradox games which came out this year, I made a nightmare.

Paradox finally announces Victoria 3. First features get summerized as "Victoria 2 better and with more". Hype goes toward the maximum level. And then hell breaks loose. As development goes on, the devs realize that, as with Stellaris and HOI4, they were too ambitous.

The economy they planned to be easier to understand and to manage while being still complex and interconnected turns out to be either uninteresting, too simplified, a load on the CPU or the 3 of them.

The system of Great Powers remains, but it is scrapped from its special interactions (influence, interventions...). Minor/Major powers get the same diplomatic possibilites as "it's no fun to get limitations on your game because of your country". But Great Power status is "still beneficial as it will give you bonuses in science and prestige". Those bonuses are bland +X% and random events giving you money/science. Losing your GP status IG now hardly makes you raise an eyebrow IRL.

Minor power can initiate crisis freely. Those crisis are limitated to only themselves at first, then propagates to their neighbours and the GP. While good on paper, this system leads you to recieve 3 crisis alerts each month. Devs hastily fix this by giving a time modifier on crisis you can get and you'll likely never be able to involve yourself in the crisis you want as RNG god gives you the crisis for independance of Guatemala 3 times a row.

On politics, the devs understood the need to fix the clickfest that were the events during the elections. Therefore, politics get simplified on 4 2 dimensional axis : autocracy/democracy, militarism/pacifism, socialism/capitalism and protectionnism/free trade. You chose to push your people's opinion in one direction for each of the axis, for each state, and forget about it the rest of the game. Playing Russia, this task takes you 15 minutes every new game. 1 month after release, everyone gears towards the OP combination of autocratic pacifists favouring free trade and socialism (aka carebear fascists). As getting information about the various political parties of every country and their stance on each of the axis is too tedious, they are reduced to 3 parties for each country, while the 8 majors of 1836 having unique ones, and the other countries generic ones. However the devs promise a political party creator soon after release, once major issues are fixed.

Colonies get kinda the same system as before, but the devs finally introduce a window which lets you manage your colonies by having a clear view of which areas you are colonizing, and letting you automate their development by choosing which priority you give to each of them. However, as there is not much to do during the game considering the uselessness of economy (you get tons of money once you have built 2 cigar factories) and the useless crisis spam by minors, colonies are divided in roughly 20km² areas you have to colonize by hand. As the artist team is quite unnecessary on the rest of the game, they focus on this part by giving it artworks, 3D modelization of colonized areas, and lots of different events randomly spamming. Those events give you pointless bonuses most of the time. Complaints from players asking for an automatisation of colonization finally leads to the devs announcing this feature, but not for the early game and only if a certain tech is researched, as they feel that "there is always a cost involved in automating core parts of the game experience". This can be understood as "ok, we failed to make that part of the game interesting, but there is, like, 40% of workhours of the game development which went down that feature, it's kinda hard to totally throw it away, because that's what it's going to be as everyone is gonna skip it if we give the option to."

The military gameplay doesn't get any changes, for lack of dev time due to the other issues. It turns out to be the only functionning and mildly interesting feature of the game. The AI, however, is keen to declare war to all its neighbours at the same time.

At that point I wake up swearing and I wonder if I really want to see Victoria 3 at all. Some months ago, I was as impatient as most of you...
 
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Don't forget the POP system rework.
New POP types (replacing the old ones):
  • rural people
  • industrial workers
  • rich people
Rest is abstracted into sliders.

Economy, same idea.
New goods:
  • Food
  • Military supplies
  • Clothes
  • Furniture
  • Luxury stuff
  • Metal
  • Wood
 
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Don't forget the POP system rework.
New POP types (replacing the old ones):
  • rural people
  • industrial workers
  • rich people
Rest is abstracted into sliders.

Economy, same idea.[...]
Oh yeah you're right, I forgot the POPs. But yeah, choose your poison : feature get simplified or is too bugged to work. In older times, Paradox would release bugged mess at release, now we get another option. And that scares me as I'm afraid you can easier fix bugs than flesh up dumbed down mecanisms. Even with the stream of DLC which is now the rule for PDX games.

But anyway, our opinions don't matter. What will make us right or wrong will be the sales, especially the sales of DLC for HOI4 and Stellaris. If that way of releasing games works (financially), thus the era of PDX games we loved to play will be over and we will have to move on to something else. If that doesn't work, we can still hope.
 
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You forgot the addition of mana which would be use on almost all aspects of the game. Also DLC that add features that sounds good on paper but are over simplified and doesn't add anything to the game
 
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o no, it's the spooky scary casualisation boogey man again! click helpful, or he will wave his simplification stick to make it so there are only 3 politcal parties in vic 3!!!
 
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o no, it's the spooky scary casualisation boogey man again! click helpful, or he will wave his simplification stick to make it so there are only 3 politcal parties in vic 3!!!
I don't mind 3 party system.
If you banned the others ;)
 
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I don't mind 3 party system.
If you banned the others ;)
Why of course! There must be 3 parties in Communist Germany:

The Communist party of Germany.
The German Communist party.
And of course,
The German Communist Party of Communist Germany!

Maximum democracy comrade!
 
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o no, it's the spooky scary casualisation boogey man again! click helpful, or he will wave his simplification stick to make it so there are only 3 politcal parties in vic 3!!!
My point is not only casualisation. Mind you, in my OP, I don't think the failures of Stellaris or HOI4 are there because the devs wanted to dumb them down (in fact, some parts of HOI4 are more complex than HOI3).
What I feel about the last PDX games and what I fear for Victoria 3 is not that they make the game more casual. It's that, because they fail to develop key and interesting features, they have to either dumb them down or release them full of bugs.

Stellaris is the most obvious issue to me. All that work for that ?
HOI4 is less disappointing : even if one wonders what was the one year delay for considering the amount of bugs, those problems appear in lots of other games. Plus, PDX games have a tradition of being full of bugs at release.
 
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Stellaris is quite good considering it's new IP. Brand new. right off the bad I was thinking "Stelly 2 or maybe 1.5 will kick ass". I also feel Hoi4 was a good step in the right direction. Planes are actually manageable. Fleets are decent. Research is meaningful. The clickfest is gone. National Foci are great. Etc.

Victoria 2 made great leaps forward, and I have no doubt that they've been secretly drawing up fantasies on how to make vicky 3 work better just like we have.
 
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Yes the patches are pretty good in the sense there is a lot to fix and add. But there is so much to do that I wonder if I'll put my hands on Stellaris before 2 or 3 DLCs. And how many will be willing to support the game until then ? I won't be one of them, but I don't matter alone.

And what's going to be more "problematic", is that people are certainly going to be angry if they consider that PDX is adding or fixing things in the DLC which should have been in the base game. Considering that the development of the game has certainly left stuff behind which was shown or hinted during the DD, it's going to easily happen...
 
Yes the patches are pretty good in the sense there is a lot to fix and add. But there is so much to do that I wonder if I'll put my hands on Stellaris before 2 or 3 DLCs. And how many will be willing to support the game until then ? I won't be one of them, but I don't matter alone.
Maybe not you or me, but that game certainly has a very large fanbase.
And what's going to be more "problematic", is that people are certainly going to be angry if they consider that PDX is adding or fixing things in the DLC which should have been in the base game. Considering that the development of the game has certainly left stuff behind which was shown or hinted during the DD, it's going to easily happen...
I'm curious what features were left out of the game? I read all the dev diaries and as far as I can tell, everything they have shown, is in the game. Whether it's up to your standards, is obviously a different topic all together. Plus we've already seen from EU4 and CK2 that paradox add an absolute crapton of free features. Seriously, go and compare the first version of EU4 to the latest version without expansions, they're almost like different game's.

And while I absolutely am not defending the practice of mandatory dlc, I do want to point out considering the topic of this thread, that possibly the worst paradox game offender for effectively forcing you to buy dlc, is Victoria 2. Victoria 2 without dlc is, to be quite honest, shit.
 
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I'm not saying that there are things in the DD left out specifically out of the game, but that if one way or another the players got to think that this is the case*, shit is gonna happen.

As for the rest of your post, I globally agree, but about Victoria, I think that this is from another thime, where specifically, Paradox choosed to release their games bugged and needed the DLC/expansions to improve them. I was under the impression that, as they have a better situation (financially speaking), the games would be better. This is not the case, whatever hype they managed to build with Stellaris.

And frankly, creating a fanbase on a space game is quite easy nowadays.

*by reading between the lines, or any other way, see the inexistent riots of slaves at release, but maybe reading one of the early DD one can imagine more interaction with POPs.
 
Maybe not you or me, but that game certainly has a very large fanbase.

I'm curious what features were left out of the game? I read all the dev diaries and as far as I can tell, everything they have shown, is in the game. Whether it's up to your standards, is obviously a different topic all together. Plus we've already seen from EU4 and CK2 that paradox add an absolute crapton of free features. Seriously, go and compare the first version of EU4 to the latest version without expansions, they're almost like different game's.

And while I absolutely am not defending the practice of mandatory dlc, I do want to point out considering the topic of this thread, that possibly the worst paradox game offender for effectively forcing you to buy dlc, is Victoria 2. Victoria 2 without dlc is, to be quite honest, shit.
I think only AHD was more or less required, HoD adds a lot of stuff like crisis, new colonization and newspapers which are not a direct improvement.
The crisis's are often weird, unrealistic and unhistorical. Sometimes they even create massive European wars for no good reason (like who will take that 1 state in africa which produces some grain). The colonization is basically click asap when you can or you lose (kinda like SoI). In the old system, you had to use precious national focus's for it and sending troops to starve in the jungle made it go faster. Newspapers are purely aesthetic and I rarely read them. So all by all I would not say HoD is required to play Victoria 2.

Probably AHD wasn't either as mods can fix 90% of paradox problems usually.
 
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The problem with Victoria 3 is that the stakes are so high due to the (deserved) status of Victoria 2 that it will be hard for Pdx to live up to the expectations
 
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Well, all the issues with Victoria 2 I see are about pushing systems further. Politics need to be even more complex and elections more dynamic for instance. I don't need any domain that would need simplification.
 
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