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Stellaris Dev Diary #43 - The Fallen

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. This is the fourth part in a multi-part dev diary about the 'Heinlein' 1.3 patch that we are currently working on. Additionally, from this point on we will also start to cover some features in an upcoming content DLC that will be released alongside Heinlein. This content DLC will not be a full expansion, but rather a smaller pack of events and scripted content focusing on a particular area of the game. Please note that everything mentioned thus far, and everything mentioned from now on that isn't explicitly marked as paid content will be free in the Heinlein patch. Details about the DLC such as name, price and release date will come in a future announcement, and further content will be covered in coming dev diaries. The focus of today's dev diary is Fallen Empires, who are about to receive a number of reworks, changes and additions.

The Fallen
Fallen Empires are my favorite part about the Stellaris setting. The idea of a precursor empire, milennia old, whose borders once stretched across the galaxy, their glory now faded, their great advancements forgotten, but the power of their ancient fleets and technology still far above that of any fledgling empire. Enigmatic actors on the galactic scene, whose morals and ambitions have been warped by ages of self-imposed isolation. For me, it invokes images of the Galactic Empire from the Foundation and the Vorlons and Shadows from Babylon 5. However, the implementation of Fallen Empires never quite matched my visions - originally meant to be completely passive, they were retooled fairly late in the development to give them some basic personality and goals as enforcers of particular taboos. While these goals make for some memorable experiences for new players (I've seen more than a few stories of careless colonization of Holy Worlds) they by necessity require Fallen Empires to behave in a highly predictable manner that, once understood, turns them back into actors of little consequence to the player. For this reason, fleshing out Fallen Empires and adding an element of unpredictability to them has been high on my priority list ever since I became Game Director, and this is what we're aiming to do in the Heinlein patch and accompanying DLC.

Sleepers Awake (Free Feature)
The idea of Fallen Empire 'awakening' was mentioned by Henrik Fåhreaus/doomdark a number of times during development as something we were interested in doing, but ultimately is something that ended up being cut for time. In Heinlein, all Fallen Empires will have a chance to awaken as a result of certain external factors. The exact conditions and chance under which each Fallen Empire will awaken depends on their ethos, but some examples include:
  • Endgame Crises threatening them or the galaxy
  • Regular empires growing too strong/technologically advanced
  • Other Fallen Empires being defeated by regular empires
  • Other Fallen Empires awakening first

When a Fallen Empire awakens, their personality, government and country type change. Their previous restriction on building ships, colonizing and conquering is lifted and they become what we call an Awakened Empire. Awakened Empires have one of the following four personalities:
  • Militant Isolationists become Jingoistic Reclaimers, and will try to conquer the galaxy
  • Holy Guardians become Doctrinal Enforcers, and will try to convert the galaxy to their faith.
  • Enigmatic Observers become Benevolent Interventionists, and will try to force all other empires into becoming a signatory to a galactic peace treaty.
  • Keepers of Knowledge become Watchful Regulators, and will try to force all other empires to accept their technological primacy.

Awakened Empires will start to rapidly expand, colonizing surrounding systems and conquering those races who will not submit to their demands. In each case, you will be able to avoid their wrath by submitting to them as a subject, with a special subject type for each of the four:
  • Jingoistic Reclaimers have Thralls, tributaries who may not colonize but can fight among each other.
  • Doctrinal Enforcers have Dominions, tributaries with enforced spiritualist ethics and government.
  • Benevolent Interventionists have Signatories, subjects who may not wage war, enslave or purge, but are otherwise independent.
  • Watchful Regulators have Satellites, who must pay a share of their research to their overlord and are required to ban all AI.

Once a Fallen Empire awakens, they will not stop until their galactic ambition is achieved or they are defeated by a coalition of lesser races. Only a few events will cause them to change their plans, such as the presence of an endgame crisis or the start of the War in Heaven (more on that below).
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Personality Changes (Free Feature)
Among the four Fallen Empire personalities we created for release, two of them didn't really work out: The Keepers of Knowledge and Enigmatic Observers. The Holy Guardians and Militant Isolationists restrict you from a certain part of space - sure, that part may be a deliciously tempting size 20 Gaia World, but ultimately you can always find another place to expand. The Keepers of Knowledge and Enigmatic Observers, however, restrict playstyles - if you get one of the former in your galaxy, you can forget about having sentient robots until you're strong enough to take them on. As there's little you can do about this other than hope for the right type of Fallen Empires to spawn, it's not very fun and ultimately just limits player strategies in a rather arbitrary way. For this reason, we've decided to revamp the Keepers of Knowledge and Enigmatic Observers.

While not awakened, they will not concern themselves with restricting the overall actions of the 'lesser' empires: Instead, they will pursue specific goals and ambitions that sometimes require them to interact with these very empires. These goals and actions take the form of Requests and Demands: If you have established communications with Keepers of Knowledge or Enigmatic Observers, they will sometimes contact you and either give you a task (for example, to hunt down a splinter faction of their species or recover a cache of technology from one of their old worlds) or make a demand (for example, one of your pops for their 'galactic preserve'). Completing their tasks will result in an opinion boost and a reward (such as technology or perhaps even a Fallen Empire ship), while repeatedly rebuffing their demands may result in a declaration of war to put you in your place.

The awakened versions of these two will take on some of the characteristics of the old, non-awakened versions, with Benevolent Interventionists seeking to enforce galactic peace and Watchful Regulators trying to regulate the level of technological advancement in the galaxy. They will also act as the first line of defense against galactical crises, taking it on themselves to unite the lesser races against such existential threats.

New Designs (Free Feature)
A small detail that I felt was lacking in Fallen Empires was the absence of any unique designs. All the Fallen Empires used the same (fairly lacking) Avatars and Eclipses, and ultimately their ships were inferior to what a regular empire that had been around for a century or two could produce. Both of these issues will be addressed in Heinlein, with each Fallen Empire ethos now having their own unique designs to use (and build, if they are awakened). For example, Keepers of Knowledge exclusively utilize energy weapons to strike their enemies at a distance, while Militant Isolationists combine afterburners and projectile weapons to get up close to their foes and tear their ships up at point-blank range. Additionally, a whole new ship class called Titans has been introduced as a (for now) exclusive new weapon in the Fallen Empire arsenal. Titans are enormous ship, the equivalent of several battleships, extremely durable and armed with a vast array of lethal weapons. They will sometimes be found in the starting fleets of Fallen Empires, and Awakened Fallen Empires will be able to build a limited number of them.
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The War in Heaven (Paid Feature)
We've talked about what happens when one Fallen Empire awakens, but what happens if there's two of them? For those with the DLC, two empires of opposing ethos (for example, Xenophobe and Xenophile) awakening can result in the War in Heaven event triggering. This event will cause the two Awakened Empires to go to war over the fate of the galaxy, dragging in the lesser species to fight on their side. All empires will be presented with a choice - join one of the two Awakened Empires and bet on their victory, join a league of non-aligned empires and hope you can stand against them both, or stand alone and risk being trampled underfoot when the war comes your way. Unlike a normal war, the War in Heaven is a cataclysmic event that will not end once a few worlds have been captured or a few battles won - it will be a fight to the death that ends only when one Awakened Empire stands victorious or both have been subjugated. If one of the Awakened Empires wins, they will show favor to those who supported them and be merciless to those who opposed them.
Kb9WzCF.png


That's all for today! Next week we'll be talking about some changes coming to space creatures, how they spawn and how they scale, coming in Heinlein.
 
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someone asked this but don't see if their was an answer to it, but what if you are already in a federation when all the other lesser races create a league to survive against the fallen empires
 
Great updates, you guys put alot of thought into it.

While everyone is on the topic of Fallen Empires, I'll throw in my 2 cents. Or 25 cents, depending how long it takes to write...

A few people have said they are upset about not being able to get all the Fallen Empire techs, but that's the whole point - the idea is they are so advanced your scientist cannot understand how it works, let alone reproduce it. Think the Protoss on Starcraft or the Forerunners on Halo - technology the other races have no way of comprehending. If you take that away and let everything be salvageable then the Fallen Empires just become a regular empire that is really far ahead, they lose that sense of awe and mystery. If you hate that idea, remember too that Paradox has made this game so moddable if you want something - no matter what it is - you can get it. But that doesn't mean it should have to be that way for everyone's game.

One thing that always nagged at me, was that - unless I'm mistaken - the Fallen Empire who tries to prevent end game crisis, namely the Machine Consciousness, could care less if you're researching jump drives. Given the description for them - they work by using another dimension that your scientists don't really understand - it practically says on the tin that you are toying with forces that you do not comprehend, forces that the Fallen Empires - who all have Jump Drives - should know all too well. So, why don't they at least try to warn you that your species is being irresponsible? That the Unbidden could come?

Anyway, it's a minor detail, not overly fussed about it. The ideas that the community is throwing around for the other ethos sound promising, and since Wiz said it's something he was thinking about too I will throw mine out there:

PACIFIST FE
The xenophile one needs to be made the pacifist ethos. They want everyone to be at peace, makes sense right?

XENOPHILE FE
The idea is that they are master geneticists. With uplifting and such, there is alot of design space in this area that right now no Fallen Empire cares about. The idea is that their race spent thousands of years gathering specimens, DNA, etc and now consider it their duty to oversee and "enhance" the species that share their galaxy - whether they like it or not. They would be concerned with the variety of life and genetic diversity, so uplifting another species to help them along or making a smaller, weaker species your protectorate would make them like you - you are helping them ensure that there is a great variety of different genetic material they have access to and can tinker with. On the other hand, purging species, killing space born life or terraforming worlds (which destroys the local biosphere to replace it with your own) would greatly anger them. If you earned their favour, they could reward your species with some genetic enhancements (a new trait point to spend ) or some genetic technology (perhaps instant progress on clone vats or something similar). Perhaps they would make requests like "Protect this species", "That planet has a delicate ecosystem, don't colonize it", "Let us genetically tinker with your colony on planet X" This would make them fit the flavour of being rivals with the xenophobe empire - the xenophobes want no diversity, the xenophiles wanting as much as possible, and you as the player torn between which one best supports your interests. Maybe their ships could have an organic appearance, looking more like they were grown than built.

MILITARIST FE
Some have suggested these guys being concerned with fighting for honour as opposed to just killing everything like the Xenophobes, and that seems to me to be the right track. I love the idea of an ancient warrior kingdom that grew stagnant when it ran out of worthy opponents. I think the idea to these guys would be they don't want to KILL you, they want to FIGHT you. When your fleet size got to a point that rivalled theirs in strength they would challenge you to test your strength (or something). If they wiped out your fleet but you made no attempt to retreat, they would reward you with some of their ships in return for a worthy and honourable fight. If they took planets they would give them back, since with the fight over they would return home. The idea is that they would have a strict code of honour, and would look at the other races to see if they had the potential to live by this code as warriors and equals. If you conquered many worlds, rivaled lots of enemies especially if they were much stronger than you, and made no guarantees of independence or defensive pacts they would show you honour and respect. If you were passive, frequently retreated from battle to hide behind your defense stations, spent more time talking than fighting (aka were part of a federation or lots of other diplomacy), or were so shamefully dishonourable that you actually sent clones and robots to fight for you rather than fight your own battles - with your own skill and strength for your own honor and glory - they would see you as beneath their notice, a weakling and sneak, trying to fight over their scraps and manipulate others with flattery. Maybe these guys could be unique in that they actually like you more if you defeat them - seeing you as some sort of alien warmonger messiah that has come to return their warriors to a new age of glory. Perhaps they would reward players with special troops or weapons technology for impressive acts of conquest, like conquering an empire and not having to retreat or lose a single planet. Since they would be actively promoting senseless warfare and violence, and condemning cooperation, they would be a direct opposite of the Peaceful FE. Again, the players playstyle would force a choice if the 2 fought against each other. I don't know what their ships would look like, but without a doubt they should have by far the most guns, essentially being gun turrets with thrusters on them.

I got no thoughts on collectives or individualists, but I'm sure you guys would think of something cool. I don't normally write anything on the internet, just goes to show how excited I am! Keep up the good work guys, and thanks for keeping us all involved. :D

Nicely written

Personally i thought something along the lines of (short form):

Collectivist: Will try to gather the galaxy for some kind of mega project to "improve" the galaxy, you then donate slaves, minerals etc. to the project. It then becomes a war for and against the creation of this. Kinda like your normal AoE Wonder game.

Individualist: Will restore the free will of the people. Try to release subjects, slaves etc.

Xenophobe: Will try to conquer the galaxy purging races in their wake. "The purifiers" (might be too close to militarist tbh)

Xenophile: Like the one described in the DD: will try to bring peace and harmony to all races through a federation.

Militarist: Like the current - will try to conquer the galaxy when a sufficient challenge arises that relight their warrior spirit.

Pacifist: Fanatic pacifists which when awakened will slowly start guranteering the galaxy with their homeworld as epicenter. They will then intervene in wars as the defenders of peace. (might be a bit aggressive but that was my first thought when thinking of a pacifist FE)

Materialist: Like the one described in the DD: will try to force all others to see them as tech superior.

Spiratulist: Like the one described in the DD: will try to convert people to their faith.
 
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Nicely written

Personally i thought something along the lines of (short form):

Collectivist: Will try to gather the galaxy for some kind of mega project to "improve" the galaxy, you then donate slaves, minerals etc. to the project. It then becomes a war for and against the creation of this. Kinda like your normal AoE Wonder game.

Individualist: Will restore the free will of the people. Try to release subjects, slaves etc.

Xenophobe: Will try to conquer the galaxy purging races in their wake. "The purifiers" (might be too close to militarist tbh)

Xenophile: Like the one described in the DD: will try to bring peace and harmony to all races through a federation.

Militarist: Like the current - will try to conquer the galaxy when a sufficient challenge arises that relight their warrior spirit.

Pacifist: Fanatic pacifists which when awakened will slowly start guranteering the galaxy with their homeworld as epicenter. They will then intervene in wars as the defenders of peace. (might be a bit aggressive but that was my first thought when thinking of a pacifist FE)

Materialist: Like the one described in the DD: will try to force all others to see them as tech superior.

Spiratulist: Like the one described in the DD: will try to convert people to their faith.

I think collectivist and individualist will be the hardest to do "right". I imagine the most straight forward and obvious way to do it would be individualists want to liberate the galaxy and collectivists want to enslave it, but making those ideals seem like the only ones that matter to an ancient race I think would be difficult, and it also makes the individualists seem like "good guys", which if you had a race that for thousands of years was focused on only their own personal whims would probably not be accurate. If I had my version of a individualist FE it would be an ancient race that has been so focused on personal wealth and pleasure seeking they ignore everything else, thus making a FE that would be very partial to bribes. I laughed a little in my head at the thought of a Induvidualist FE wiping out a civilization on an ocean world so they could turn into a luxury resort. Stuff like that gives the player this sense that they just don't care about the lesser races, which if they were made some kind of "Freedom Force" (MURICA!) wouldn't really fit. I dunno, it's a toughie. Collectives/individual FE would definitely be the hardest imo. Good ideas though
 
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Sandbox in space becomes epic and dynamic space opera.

It's going to be pretty exciting stuff if it (more or less) works when implemented.
 
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Great updates, you guys put alot of thought into it.

PACIFIST FE

XENOPHILE FE

MILITARIST FE

:D

Awesome ideas Dave. How does one be called "Davethe Great" and not post anything on the Internet?

The Pacifist FE Idea there would actually be REALLY annoying lol. Could be tweaked so that all the Militarists in the galaxy get together to sort them out....
 
I'm really looking forward to this patch. I also stopped playing to wait for the patch. That lasted about a week :)
I just have to make sure I finish my game before the patch.
The way the FE are designed now will make the whole game interesting, not just the beginning. Even rapidly expanding or researching a certain tech could now trigger an FE to awaken.
No more safe places in the galaxy...
 
Which particular issues? Because putting any major changes into a hotfix we won't have much time to test is pretty likely to cause more issues.

We're all going to have our pet sector issues, but for me a huge one is the way sector AI constantly enslaves and emancipates pops, which makes it impossible to role-play evil, Xeno-enslaving empires.

This has been brought up ever since the Asimov patch was released, and a toggle for players to enable or disable that behavior was mentioned back in July. If it only affects the player and not the AI, then I can't foresee it causing any major balancing issues, but then I'm not a programmer.

If it has to wait for Heinlein, then so be it.
 
One point from the diary gave me an interesting idea: it mentions fallen empires asking you to retrieve stuff from their old planets or destroy splinter factions. Will we be able to do stuff like secretly copy the data for our own research (i.e. obtain some otherwise un-obtainable tech from it or something) or recruit the splinter faction to work for us rather than destroying it (with the obvious addition of that fallen empire becoming monumentally pissed off at you for doing so)?

Also,
Huh? No man, they always make a perfectly fine Industrial sector for me.
Honestly, in their current form, fallen empires have been more like an optional superboss with some good rewards for beating them, rather than a major part of the story.
 
We're all going to have our pet sector issues, but for me a huge one is the way sector AI constantly enslaves and emancipates pops, which makes it impossible to role-play evil, Xeno-enslaving empires.

This has been brought up ever since the Asimov patch was released, and a toggle for players to enable or disable that behavior was mentioned back in July. If it only affects the player and not the AI, then I can't foresee it causing any major balancing issues, but then I'm not a programmer.

If it has to wait for Heinlein, then so be it.

I'll look into if it's something we can break into a hotfix. Maybe just disable sector use of slavery until Heinlein hits.
 
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@Wiz

Is the fix for allied fleets derping around and following the player rather then being useful, still slated to be in 1.3? I think you mentioned it would be, but that was way back in pre 1.2. It's pretty much my biggest annoyance with the game that keeps me from really playing much.
 
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Huh? No man, they always make a perfectly fine Industrial sector for me.

the way the fallen empires are right now, they are nothing but optional side thing or like an optional boss. Now that they are making these changes to the Fallen Empire they will hopefully be much more involved in the games
 
Looks great. Once this and maybe another expansion come out and wars are balanced, I'll definitely want to buy this! Also this is an irrelevant side note but the concept of people claiming that content can be cut out of games is so moronic. If it was never promised or hinted at and is an extra feature that was not originally planned, there is no obligation for it to be included in the base game
 
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Looks great. Once this and maybe another expansion come out and wars are balanced, I'll definitely want to buy this! Also this is an irrelevant side note but the concept of people claiming that content can be cut out of games is so moronic. If it was never promised or hinted at and is an extra feature that was not originally planned, there is no obligation for it to be included in the base game

Blasphemy! Spend a few years(months?) here and you will change your tune. You will, Yes you WILL!
 
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I'm really looking forward to this patch. I also stopped playing to wait for the patch. That lasted about a week :)
I just have to make sure I finish my game before the patch.
The way the FE are designed now will make the whole game interesting, not just the beginning. Even rapidly expanding or researching a certain tech could now trigger an FE to awaken.
No more safe places in the galaxy...

Looks like Reality got a Space ship and teamed up with Fallen Empires.
 
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Right now, wars are mostly won with 1 decisive battle. If you manage to stomp the enemy's fleet there's little to keep you from winning the war (even if you still need some time for collecting warscore).
If the War in Heaven continues until one side is completely defeated, the fight might turn into a long boring drag once one side reaches naval superiority. Do you plan on implementing additional mechanisms which allow the losing side to turn the tide of the war?
Are you proposing shattered retreat :eek: