Victoria 3 Timeline and Bookmark Ideas

[CaptainCrape]

NOTE: This is not a petition to make Victoria 3, it is simply my own idea for when the game could take place and what bookmarks could be placed throughout its timeline.

So, with Victoria 3 possibly being be on the horizon, I would like to post an idea for what the timeline could look like. Personally, Victoria 2 has always been relatively short compared to other Paradox games, and I feel they could expand the timeline without the general feel of the game shifting too much. So, I think expanding all the way back to 1736 would be a good idea. That way the player could experience the monarchical and early colonial world of the 18th century, and the rise of the British Empire, before the Victorian era that Victoria 2 takes place in, while still retaining much of the same weapons and nations of the 19th century.

With that said, here is my idea for the bookmarks within the timeline (dates are in american format):

1/1/1736- Enlightenment

7/4/1776- American Revolution

7/14/1789- French Revolution

11/9/1799- Napoleonic Era

1/1/1821- Industrial Revolution (Gotta have that EU4 save transfer compatibility!)

1/1/1836- The Grand Campaign

4/12/1861- American Civil War

1/1/1881- Scramble for Africa

7/28/1914- The War to End All Wars

1/1/1920- Roaring 20's

10/29/1929- The Great Depression

The timeline will span 1736-1936.

Also, the player should be able to freely change the date like in EU4 and CK2.

So, this is my idea for a possible timeline for Victoria 3, if I should change anything, tell me in the comments.

 

[Susanna]

You can rule out dates in the 18th century - that is EU's territory.

1821, however, for a smooth transfer from EU4, would be great.

 

[adriankowaty]

You can rule out dates in the 18th century - that is EU's territory.

Not at all. Currently, CK II ends in 1.1.1453 (according to defines.org in CK II), while EU IV begins in 11.11.1444. This means that we have 8 years, one month and 21(inclunding border days) days within both CK II's and EU's timeline.
Also EU III had started in 14.10.1399 with In Nomine expansion.
So it's possible to cover some part of EU's timeline with Vicky III (for example 1789-1836).

 

[Susanna]

I simply rate it as highly, highly unlikely.

 

[Zavaleta]

While this would be great, I would still be happy if Victoria 3 released with only two or three bookmarks. Mostly because I would be happy the game got made at all.

 

[General WVPM]

Paradox said they wouldn't do that many start dates any more, so we'd be lucky with 2 :/
There won't be an ability to freely change the date as that would require way too much data unless you destroy the POP system.

Personally, I'd be all up for 1815, when everything seemed to have returned to normal.

 

[aruon]

i think the best starting time for V3 would either be 1800 since it's 3 years before the napoleonic wars, or 1815 as that's just after the napoleonic wars.

 

[CaptainCrape]

EU4 just doesn't seem to simulate the early modern period/Industrial revolution as well as Victoria, hence why I want it to start in 1736.

EU4 is much more abstract in its demographics. Vic2 has a pie chart showing the different demographics, whereas EU4 is one culture or another. That works well for the medieval period/renaissance but not so well for 18th and 19th century's, where immigration between countries ramped up.

Also the Industrial Revolution is basically entirely absent from EU4, despite beginning around 1760.

And it also misses the political tribulations of the American and French Revolutions.

 

[Nuukov]

Since there will probably be very few start dates I think the most realistic (and ones I want the most) would be:

1/1/1821- The Grand Campaign
4/12/1861- American Civil War
7/28/1914- The War to End All Wars

But if I could add one more out of personal preference it would be:
7/11/1917- The Russian Civil War

Finally with the end date being 1/1/1936.

P.S. You also mentioned how Victoria does not last very long, it could be artificially lengthened by doing something similar to HoI4. Perhaps where Days are split into halves as individual "ticks".

 

[zorkman]

I have always thought Victoria should start at the beginning of the French Revolution/Napoleonic period in 1789 as this is when the world changes & went more industrial. I would also end EU there as it makes no sense playing past this period & the game doesn't work well.

 

[Zavaleta]

While I imagine 1821 or 1836 is probably what PDS would choose, I would prefer a start date of the French Revolution since Victoria is the only game that simulates modern politics it would make sense for the game to start with the birth of modern political ideologies. It would also be reason for the designers to put emphasis into creating a cool revolution system that would make the entire game more fun. Plus, I really want to play out the Haitian revolution!

 

[vyshan]

Personally I see 1815 or 1836 being the start date for baseline vicky 3.

That said I really want to see the Atlantic revolutionary wave as part of the game. So Should those eras not be in the base game. i can easily see that being part of an expansion dlc IMO.

 

[CaptainCrape]

Since there will probably be very few start dates I think the most realistic (and ones I want the most) would be:

1/1/1821- The Grand Campaign
4/12/1861- American Civil War
7/28/1914- The War to End All Wars

But if I could add one more out of personal preference it would be:
7/11/1917- The Russian Civil War

Finally with the end date being 1/1/1936.

P.S. You also mentioned how Victoria does not last very long, it could be artificially lengthened by doing something similar to HoI4. Perhaps where Days are split into halves as individual "ticks".

I still think 1736 would still work best.

The longer days system works fine for HOI because so much happens over that short 12 years.

Whereas in Victoria 2, it's like EU4. Things like upgrading a colony take a year, and shorter days would make that a real pain.

Imagine if EU4 did that. It would be much harder to complete a game.

 

[CaptainCrape]

Sol, a few people have pointed out that this is too many start dates for a game like Victoria 3.

And I agree, after all EU4 has only a few more and covers a period of almost twice as long.

So, here is an alternate list with not as many start dates:

1/1/1736-Enlightenment

7/4/1776- American Revolution

7/14/1789- French Revolution (I cut out Napoleonic Era, the rise of Napoleon can be simulated through events, decisions, etc, like the civil war in AHD).

1/1/1821- Industrial Revolution

1/1/1836- The Grand Campaign (I debated keeping this here, but the 1836 start date is a staple of Victoria).

4/12/1861- American Civil War

7/28/1914- The War to End All Wars

 

[paulatreides0]

There's no real reason to start Vicky off prior to the post-Napoleonic period. I mean, there's a reason why the Post-Napoleonic period is called as such and considered such an important mark. It was a major shifting point for ideology, identity, and beliefs of nations and many people. It also set Britain as the undisputed hegemon of Europe - practically, which is another very important consideration for this period.

One could perhaps, maybe argue that Vicky should begin with the rise of Napoleon to emperorship, but arguing that it should go all the way back to the 18th century is just way, way too much. EUIV represents that period amply enough.

Regardless, PDox has stated that their future games will have very few timestamps because researching takes up tons of time and keeping up timestaps with patches and DLC is a pain in the butt, so they will, at most, only have a few, and those should be limited to three:

1) The beginning date (1820s or 1830s)

2) A good middle date (the rise of Germany, 1871, is arguably the best one for this or the ACW in 1861 - which also coincides with the formation of Italy)

3) A good late game (1910 or 1914 with WWI looming)

 

[CaptainCrape]

There's no real reason to start Vicky off prior to the post-Napoleonic period. I mean, there's a reason why the Post-Napoleonic period is called as such and considered such an important mark. It was a major shifting point for ideology, identity, and beliefs of nations and many people. It also set Britain as the undisputed hegemon of Europe - practically, which is another very important consideration for this period.

One could perhaps, maybe argue that Vicky should begin with the rise of Napoleon to emperorship, but arguing that it should go all the way back to the 18th century is just way, way too much. EUIV represents that period amply enough.

Regardless, PDox has stated that their future games will have very few timestamps because researching takes up tons of time and keeping up timestaps with patches and DLC is a pain in the butt, so they will, at most, only have a few, and those should be limited to three:

1) The beginning date (1820s or 1830s)

2) A good middle date (the rise of Germany, 1871, is arguably the best one for this or the ACW in 1861 - which also coincides with the formation of Italy)

3) A good late game (1910 or 1914 with WWI looming)

I don't know, The same thing was happening in 1736 too. Maybe not as much but it was happening. After all that's why they call the whole 18th century "The Enlightenment".

 

[Rubidium]

I don't know, The same thing was happening in 1736 too. Maybe not as much but it was happening. After all that's why they call the whole 18th century "The Enlightenment".

While there was certainly some nationalism and the like, it was mostly an elite phenomenon. No one saw anything odd about a French duke trading his land in Lorraine for land in Italy, and wars were justified over inheritance claims (i.e. the numerous wars of succession throughout the 18th century) with relatively little effort to appeal to national self-determination. A democratic republic is basically a pie-in-the-sky dream until late in the century, and economic thought is still in the old mercantilist model.

Now compare that with post-Napoleonic Europe: even wars fought nominally over succession (e.g. the two wars over Slesvig-Holstein) have a massive nationalist component; rulers, even when they are foreigners brought in by a newly independent nation, have to be aware of nationalism within their subjects; the memory of the French Republic is strong, and the USA serves as a model for other newly-independent colonies; economic disputes between free trade, protectionism, communism and capitalism are raging throughout Europe and the Americas. It's a very different world.

But back to the thread topic: I expect they will keep the 1836 start date. Paradox says their stats show people basically only play the earliest start date, and if they follow the CK2/EU4 model of making constant changes and introducing new mechanics every few months for years, then keeping each start date updated/balanced for the new mechanics will be a massive pain. 1836 allows people to play as the various Latin American nations (a not-insignificant market for Paradox, especially Brazil), gives a setup that won't look too ahistorical (because as anyone who's played any Paradox game knows, the earlier the start date, the less likely things are to look at all like real history) and sets people up for the various wars of unification without worrying about things like Communists in the 1740s. Remember also: the earlier you push the start date, the less people will see all the cool 19th century things (like Communism, nationalism really taking off, labor unions, etc.), because most people don't play complete games, so if they don't see them in the first few decades, they likely never will (especially if the game slows down like late-game Vic2 did).

 

[CaptainCrape]

While there was certainly some nationalism and the like, it was mostly an elite phenomenon. No one saw anything odd about a French duke trading his land in Lorraine for land in Italy, and wars were justified over inheritance claims (i.e. the numerous wars of succession throughout the 18th century) with relatively little effort to appeal to national self-determination. A democratic republic is basically a pie-in-the-sky dream until late in the century, and economic thought is still in the old mercantilist model.

Now compare that with post-Napoleonic Europe: even wars fought nominally over succession (e.g. the two wars over Slesvig-Holstein) have a massive nationalist component; rulers, even when they are foreigners brought in by a newly independent nation, have to be aware of nationalism within their subjects; the memory of the French Republic is strong, and the USA serves as a model for other newly-independent colonies; economic disputes between free trade, protectionism, communism and capitalism are raging throughout Europe and the Americas. It's a very different world.

But back to the thread topic: I expect they will keep the 1836 start date. Paradox says their stats show people basically only play the earliest start date, and if they follow the CK2/EU4 model of making constant changes and introducing new mechanics every few months for years, then keeping each start date updated/balanced for the new mechanics will be a massive pain. 1836 allows people to play as the various Latin American nations (a not-insignificant market for Paradox, especially Brazil), gives a setup that won't look too ahistorical (because as anyone who's played any Paradox game knows, the earlier the start date, the less likely things are to look at all like real history) and sets people up for the various wars of unification without worrying about things like Communists in the 1740s. Remember also: the earlier you push the start date, the less people will see all the cool 19th century things (like Communism, nationalism really taking off, labor unions, etc.), because most people don't play complete games, so if they don't see them in the first few decades, they likely never will (especially if the game slows down like late-game Vic2 did).

Hmm. That's a very compelling argument. And well said too. Perhaps the timeline should be shortened.

But, I still think it should atleast cover the "long 18th century" (1789-1914) and maybe a tad bit before that.

I think 1776 would be a good start date instead because of the American Revolution (Which in my opinion was one of the turning points in history, along with the French Revolution). 1776 would allow for some pretty interesting alternate history too. Such as Great Britain winning the American war for independence or the french revolution never happening (kind of like the civil war in Vic2, of you make the right choices).

And maybe Paradox can add the 1736 start date in as DLC, kind of like EU3's 1399 start date (except this time don't epically fail and unbalance the whole game).

 

[neusaap]

I expect they will keep the 1836 start date.

I agree, '36 is most likely since that makes for a 100yrs timespan. I myself would prefer an 1815 start though...

1836 allows people to play as the various Latin American nations (a not-insignificant market for Paradox, especially Brazil)

Latin America IS an insignificant market for PDX; the only latin american country that has a large enough share of HoI4-owners to be noted is Brazil, with 1.03%, which means that all other countries have a <0.32% share, which in turn means that even Denmark (as hated as it is here) almost certainly beats all of Latin America in terms of market significance... That said, Latin American nations are nice to play as, though they could also be implemented through the possibility to side with them in the independence war (which will fire only a few years in the game, provided you don't go too far into EU4) and later startdates.

 

[Zavaleta]

I know the 1836 start creates an aesthetically pleasing 100 year time span, but the start date also means we miss out on the Greek War of Independence and the French revolution of 1830. 1821, the start of the Greek struggle against the Ottomans would be a superior start date. This game is about great powers meddling, nationalism, and revolutions, right? Why miss out on a decade of good stuff!