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Me_

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Jan 14, 2011
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First, let me state that I have not played No Man's Sky, and for a good reason that I will outline below.

No Man's Sky and Stellaris share certain elements that both make players want to play the game before it's released and make players don't want to play the game after they actually try it.

Those tweo effects are caused by one thing: randomized content. You see, both No Man's Sky and Stellaris allow you to explore a vast, randomized galaxy. Sure, there are tons of differences, so someone's bound to sya they cannot be compared, but let me use an analogy of a movie. A horror movie that takes place in space (e.g. Alien) and an action movie that takes place in space (e.g. Aliens) and a fantasy movie that takes place in space (e.g. Star Wars) are all very differet, but that does not mean they cannot be compared in their portrayal of an alien setting.

So, both games rely on procedularly generated content to entertain. But such content is and will be for many more years superficial. The deeper you go, the harder such content is to generate and games have finite budgets. But randomness gives the illusion of infinite possibilities, which is only made more notable by the setting (space brings out ideas ofendless variety).

There was another game that promised the same; some of you may be too young to remember it. it was called Spore. That game died and it's only ever brought up now as an example of how belief in Random Number God is not enough to carry a game that lacks content. But it is enough to sell it.

No Man's Sky has become a focal point of major controversy. As far as I know, the game deliveres what it promised, but what is promised is not what people believed it would be. Faith in randomness is still strong and will always be. It is also still flawed and it will always be. A hundret types of soap, even a million is not an interesting choice if the only differences are colour and size. But 5 bars of soap that differ in scent, ability to generate bubbles, how they affect sensitive skin, their antibacterial capabilities, how they interact with hard water and what is their price is an interesting choice.

Based on the recent DDs, it would appear that Paradox has realized the folly of putting to much faith in just the ilussion of infinite possibilities. I am rather convinced that Wiz will take this game into the realm of good games, where proccedural generation and scripted content are intermixed (see CK2 for reference), not living in two different towns, on two different planet. That being said, Stellaris should be a lesson for having too much faith in randomness. I hope future Paradox games do not repeat its mistake.
 
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I have played no mans sky. It is a good game. It really would have done better as a small indie release, a la KSP.

Ps, spore was great. It's still one of my all time favorites.
 
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Ps, spore was great. It's still one of my all time favorites.

Aaaand you lost the majority of people on this alone.


Including me.
 
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I get where you're coming from with the No Man's Sky critique, but Stellaris is only slightly more dependent on the RNG than any of the 4X or random-map RTS games that inspired it.
 
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i sort of agree and disagree. too much blame is being leveled solely at RNG, and the forest is being missed for the trees.

while yeah it's pretty clear at this point RNG has it's limitations, the main part of getting it right is preventing Suspension of Disbelief- AKA when it's pretty clear that the game in question is pulling ideas out of its ass with no rhyme or reason, and then knowing when to add scripting to constrain/regulate the RNG algorithms.

the issues with No Man's Sky on the other hand are only partly because of the game itself. separating the development from the publishing you get this:

publishing:

SONY. Sony is a hype machine unto itself. if you got Sony providing the ad campaign for you, people will notice and see that you're the hot shit on the market. that's just how it is because when you see a big fat sony sticker, you think of the things that make sony the console juggernaut it is.
it's the same kind of facade as with someone like Donald Trump. on the surface he's the business guru who wins, wins and wins some more and has the midas touch. but when you dig below the surface...

the induced hype factor: excluding the above, it's safe to say the hype train was very real. so yeah unless Hello Games could pull off something rivaling something that could rival the idea of what Star Citizen could be when it's finished out... yeah... no chance in hell.

No Man's Sky isn't Waterworld starring Kevin Costner levels of bad, but it is Waterworld levels of overhyped, which further takes away from the game itself.


pity factor: if you followed NMS as little as just watching every The Know piece about it (like me), you'll know just how bad Hello Games has had of a time. flooding destroyed their studio and almost all of their equipment, Sky UK (the british telecommunications company) sued hello games and sony for 3 years over the word SKY in no man's sky (i'm dead ****ing serious), and even a patent troll in the form of a dutch company that bankrupted and became defunct years ago. repeatedly overcoming these absurd obstacles could make ANYONE root for them. i sure as hell did.
no seriously, god must've really had it in for these people.


development:

missing content- now there is a lot of things missing that people really didn't like. but in the end, Hello games is a first time indie developer, and with the severe strings attached there, they could only put so much into a game without having a longer development timeline that Duke Nukem Forever... or eventually without paying the bills.
much like PDS games, NMS will get much better as it matures over time.


limitations:
now while the main hype point was that anything and everything was randomly generated... yeah... that selling point got undercut fairly recently. hackers have since decompressed that code and all that jazz to see the inner workings to some degree. wow. NMS is actually REALLY underwhelming in the RNG department.

the reason why there are SOOOOOOO many planets (triple the believed amount as our galaxy) is that they are pretty much limited only by the 64 bit operating system.
everything else however is mostly limited to a rather small selection of templates (as little as 255). this is why people quickly started noticing that some indigenous flora/fauna/environments were carbon copies of previous planets... it's because they were. and that's actually a key reason why NMS gets repetitive in more ways than one, because there simply isn't enough variety to be exploited by the random generator. oh the irony.


RNG start to finish: unlike stellaris, CK2, or any game that starts with something REAL and seen IRL. NMS was pure fantasy, unbound to event the simplest IRL intersections (such as a start of Earth). this is where procedurally generated content suffers the most. as i stated previously, RNG content can do good so long as it keeps one linchpin at bay: preventing Suspension of Disbelief. NMS however has to play on that genre-critical issue by doing what can be summed up as suspending the suspension. if everything is bizarre and unearthly, it takes longer to get the idea that everything is BS... but this doesn't quite work.


if we had known what we know now about NMS we'd have a much lower bar than what we had. i got NMS AFTER all this went down and after watching some jacksepticeye and markiplier videos of it. and while repetitive, it is a nice game (though it sure as hell ISN'T worth the $60 price tag)

now if later games were made set in the universe of NMS, they could retroactively make the game better with backstories being fleshed out and the like.


and as one game reviewer put it: NMS is the kind of game you can just play for a few hours and lose yourself in.


now for stellaris:

the issues with stellaris on the other hand AREN'T because of RNG abuse at all. the game itself is just kinda iffy in some areas, which
1) is to be expected. this is still new territory for PDS.
and 2) is what the upcoming 1.3 patch is going to rectify now thay the devs have some experience to go on.

procedural generation in stellaris is actually fairly light past the galaxy generation and species placement. it's just that the user experience is limited because the content expected simply isn't there yet. give stellaris time to grow.
 
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First, let me state that I have not played No Man's Sky, and for a good reason that I will outline below.

No Man's Sky and Stellaris share certain elements that both make players want to play the game before it's released and make players don't want to play the game after they actually try it.

Those tweo effects are caused by one thing: randomized content. You see, both No Man's Sky and Stellaris allow you to explore a vast, randomized galaxy. Sure, there are tons of differences, so someone's bound to sya they cannot be compared, but let me use an analogy of a movie. A horror movie that takes place in space (e.g. Alien) and an action movie that takes place in space (e.g. Aliens) and a fantasy movie that takes place in space (e.g. Star Wars) are all very differet, but that does not mean they cannot be compared in their portrayal of an alien setting.

So, both games rely on procedularly generated content to entertain. But such content is and will be for many more years superficial. The deeper you go, the harder such content is to generate and games have finite budgets. But randomness gives the illusion of infinite possibilities, which is only made more notable by the setting (space brings out ideas ofendless variety).

There was another game that promised the same; some of you may be too young to remember it. it was called Spore. That game died and it's only ever brought up now as an example of how belief in Random Number God is not enough to carry a game that lacks content. But it is enough to sell it.

No Man's Sky has become a focal point of major controversy. As far as I know, the game deliveres what it promised, but what is promised is not what people believed it would be. Faith in randomness is still strong and will always be. It is also still flawed and it will always be. A hundret types of soap, even a million is not an interesting choice if the only differences are colour and size. But 5 bars of soap that differ in scent, ability to generate bubbles, how they affect sensitive skin, their antibacterial capabilities, how they interact with hard water and what is their price is an interesting choice.

Based on the recent DDs, it would appear that Paradox has realized the folly of putting to much faith in just the ilussion of infinite possibilities. I am rather convinced that Wiz will take this game into the realm of good games, where proccedural generation and scripted content are intermixed (see CK2 for reference), not living in two different towns, on two different planet. That being said, Stellaris should be a lesson for having too much faith in randomness. I hope future Paradox games do not repeat its mistake.
Yes, there are so many variants that I feel there's nothing special about the galaxy that was generated "just for me". I could start over again looking for a "better galaxy" and it will be again just one more in a trillion of possible ones. Every galaxy is like an exam where you are tested as an strategist and I don't think I like it. A chess game has endless possibilities and pieces start always in the same place. RNG is heartless, has no soul, and it cannot be one of the core of a game. The main parts must be made by artists and they are the only ones that can save the game.
 
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No Man's Sky isn't Waterworld starring Kevin Costner levels of bad, but it is Waterworld levels of overhyped, which further takes away from the game itself.
I don't know what all the fuss was about. I saw that movie six times. It rules!
 
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The main part of your game is your gamemaster telling a story. Dices are auxiliary to make it a fun game and not a one man's whims.
I mean, I DM and roleplay both. Dice are at the "core of a game". Directed randomness itself isn't the problem. RNG isn't the problem. As you point out, there has to be a story, and that story is driven by themes, occasional set-pieces, characters, etc, but the randomness is part of why it is fun. Sure, you can do "pure" collaborative story telling, but that's certainly not what I prefer and It isn't what stellaris or NMS could EVER be. Nor should they try to be.
 
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I mean, I DM and roleplay both. Dice are at the "core of a game". Directed randomness itself isn't the problem. RNG isn't the problem. As you point out, there has to be a story, and that story is driven by themes, occasional set-pieces, characters, etc, but the randomness is part of why it is fun. Sure, you can do "pure" collaborative story telling, but that's certainly not what I prefer and It isn't what stellaris or NMS could EVER be. Nor should they try to be.
Stellaris is saved because of that guy of Failbetter games is now part of the team and he certainly can write bits of stories and thred them together. I know what you are saying but I think dices are a complement, a part of the system, if your char has high skills most probable is it will roll fine. Dices spice thing up IMO but if the story falls short youren't going to have a good game session I think (I played pen and paper rpgs just a few times I'm afraid)
 
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Stellaris is saved because of that guy of Failbetter games is now part of the team and he certainly can write bits of stories and thred them together. I know what you are saying but I think dices are a complement, a part of the system, if your char has high skills most probable is it will roll fine. Dices spice thing up IMO but if the story falls short youren't going to have a good game session I think (I played pen and paper rpgs just a few times I'm afraid)
No you're right, you absolutely need a good story, or at least interesting mechanics that allow for an emergent story. But without random elements, there would be no chance of failure and that would kill tension right out.

The Sunless Seas guy also commented that more content isn't the answer because ultimately content necessarily gets shallow unless it railroads you. That's why those long single player campaign experiences were often so good. All of the story went into that and if there was MP it was random map clickfest. Stellaris tries to do both without railroading you, and it has a long way to go, though I think it's a very good attempt and a fun game so far.
 
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I... don't think it was randomnes that made No Man's Sky not a very interesting game. Random didn't make Strabound a bad game. And a lot of people actually complain about a fact that devs added liner story and instance zones (they basically wanted more Terraria).
 
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Except the delivers of No mans sky outright lied so many of the things they promised are not in the game no multiplayer not giant ship battles its basically goto planet collect stuff sell that stuff repeat.
 
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Except the delivers of No mans sky outright lied so many of the things they promised are not in the game no multiplayer not giant ship battles its basically goto planet collect stuff sell that stuff repeat.

this. this has pissed off people to no end and is a key reason for NMS having a relatively high refund rate.
 
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Tell that to Roleplayers like me who use dice to solve problems :p
A die can solve a problem.o_O Two dice can solve more problems.:) Therefore, dice can solve ALL the problems.:cool:
Buys MORE dice.:D
The main part of your game is your gamemaster telling a story. Dices are auxiliary to make it a fun game and not a one man's whims.
Not always. I've lost several characters to the roll of a die. The dice can change everything. The DM sets the stage and scripts the entrances of characters, but it is the players and the dice who have the power to move the dialouge and the story along.
Unless the DM is a railroader, and then you would be right.

My view - restricting randomisation restricts the number of experiances possible in the game. In order to increase the number of experiances possible, the game needs new mechanics or further development. If these features were to block the possible experiances, then that would be undesirable.
 
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Firstly, No Man's Sky wasn't just a lackluster product, it was an outright fraud. The developer quite plainly promised features that weren't in it. What's more, he would do it in such a subtle way that you know he was deliberately lying rather than just "getting excited." The game was a fraud and if I were the dictator of Britain, I'd confiscate every cent of profit and throw Sean Murray in jail.

Now, there are some similarities between Stellaris and No Man's Sky in that regard, particularly as things like colony events, fallen empires awakening, and other features were not present at launch and no statements were made (as far as I'm aware) warning customers of that. However, it's nowhere near on the same scale, and Paradox has been doing a much better job of providing feedback anyhow.

I don't feel like the random generation is a huge problem, although it does make many games worse (a lot of good ideas have been ruined by needlessly making them into roguelikes). I can definitely say that anybody who took No Man's Sky's marketing seriously is an idiot, but with Stellaris, I think it pretty much achieves the effect it aimed for. Could use more physically-based traits and maybe mechanics tied into them, but it's okay. What I have a problem with is the symmetrical start.

Because there's a symmetrical start, any decent player will be the equivalent of a great power by the mid-game, which means that in a way, they've won the game before it's properly started. The symmetrical start also means you tend to be interacting with a world that has very little history behind it. So, the game's too easy (you don't get experiences like playing an OPM) and it's hard to invest in its scenarios.
 
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Really with all due respect to the will of discussing constructively about a game's problems, no man sky is completely on a different level, it was a fraud.
 
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Handled properly randomised content can add massive depth.

From the memorable, randomised encounters and story's in the rogue-like gaming genre to the randomised dice rolls you need to anticipate in a strategic game of Blood Bowl RNG is no folly,
. Randomisation can make really memorable and unique experiences. I don't agree with you at all.
 
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