CK2 Dev Diary #29: Illumination

[Alcadizzar19]

I disagree natural philosophy was in pursuit of truth not in pursuit of gold and immortality.

Methinks you lionize the early scientists too much; knowledge is great but it doesn't pay for food.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

I disagree natural philosophy was in pursuit of truth not in pursuit of gold and immortality, yeah that may have been a side interest to some of them but no more relevant to what they did than Newton's beliefs in numerology.

I would love to see a mechanic for philosophical advancement to complement the technological advancement mechanic the game already has, but this seems a lot more "Dan Brown" than that.

Still, alchemy and natural science were interwoven in the discussed time period. So the inclusion of one would suggest the look at the other. And, again, this goes not only for natural science, but for philosophy as well.

 

[TheDungen]

Methinks you lionize the early scientists too much; knowledge is great but it doesn't pay for food.

Which is why the classes that did not work were the likeliest to actually do philosophy. Philosophy became a thing in a society where all the real labour was done by slaves, and not until the standard of living reached that point did the phenomenon occur.
Yes the later professional philosophers may have sold their art to those who paid them as alchemy, but their writings contain little of it.

Still, alchemy and natural science were interwoven in the discussed time period. So the inclusion of one would suggest the look at the other. And, again, this goes not only for natural science, but for philosophy as well.

Well until fairly modern times science was just called natural philosophy. And while most great philopsophers and scientists had their odd side projects, like Newton's numerology, like Leibniz's monads and alchemy for some, it is not that which is important about their work. I could see it being one branch of philosophy one which allowed you to allocate more funds to research or something. But it's no more important than say the study in metaphysics, which also turned out to be a pipedream of course but which yielded benefits in that it created logical methods which were invaluable for natural philosophy.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

I hope if we do actually see cults appear that:

A: They don't make a habit or running rampant and

B: Non-Catholic Christianity gets some work at the same time.

Pagan cults definitely were a thing in the period though, probably into the modern era. What do you think witches were? Not devil worshippers, that was just what the Christians thought they were.

 

[ahk528]

For every war that happened during the CK2 timeline, you'd need to drastically increase the map and to add a ton of historical characters.
While I'd personally like every settlement to be represented, ranging from big cities to small one-camel towns, it's a tad bit unrealistic.
And the last thing I want is to have one region of the map represented in the fullest, while the rest remains the same as before.

England is perhaps big, but not bigger than Holy Roman Empire, or Arabian Empire, or Hungary... Why should England be a special snowflake? Yeah, I would like to see War of the Roses represented on a realistic map. But only if the entire map is realistic.
Until we get that, we can enjoy various events and decisions to simulate the War.

Yeah I know thats what I was trying to tell/ explain to Gamengervi, as well as telling him what they could do so it wouldn't affect game play/ game speed too much, but I would prefer an increased/ realistic map for everything not just England.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

Well until fairly modern times science was just called natural philosophy. And while most great philopsophers and scientists had their odd side projects, like Newton's numerology, like Leibniz's monads and alchemy for some, it is not that which is important about their work. I could see it being one branch of philosophy one which allowed you to allocate more funds to research or something. But it's no more important than say the study in metaphysics, which also turned out to be a pipedream of course but which yielded benefits in that it created logical methods which were invaluable for natural philosophy.

And yet, of the 240 works of Ibn Sina that survived only 40 were about medicine while 150 on philosophy. And not on natural philosophy, they were theological in nature.

The scientists of old times were products of their times. To the Medieval worldview religion and philosophy were often as important as laws of nature, sometimes inseparable. We're not talking about Age of Reason natural philosophers here. And this makes their accomplishments not by the least bit lesser, that they believed in things we find bizzare or quaint and yet managed to achieve greatness and reach breakthroughs, is all the more a source of amazement. Therefore I'd rather know about the man striving to understand Aristotle and wondering about how this makes him see the Qur'an in a different light, while also practicing medicine, rather than dismiss his religion, cultural, philosophical, and social background and just concentrate on his medical discoveries.

 

[WiseGreen]

I hope if we do actually see cults appear that:

A: They don't make a habit or running rampant and

B: Non-Catholic Christianity gets some work at the same time.

Pagan cults definitely were a thing in the period though, probably into the modern era. What do you think witches were? Not devil worshippers, that was just what the Christians thought they were.

I hope it also allows for more branching out of Islam and more representatiion of their controversies over jurisprudence, religious authority, sainthood etc., and it adds more depth and color to their interactions with other religions, specially in West Africa and India.

 

[TheDungen]

And yet, of the 240 works of Ibn Sina that survived only 40 were about medicine while 150 on philosophy. And not on natural philosophy, they were theological in nature.

The scientists of old times were products of their times. To the Medieval worldview religion and philosophy were often as important as laws of nature, sometimes inseparable. We're not talking about Age of Reason natural philosophers here. And this makes their accomplishments not by the least bit lesser, that they believed in things we find bizzare or quaint and yet managed to achieve greatness and reach breakthroughs, is all the more a source of amazement. Therefore I'd rather know about the man striving to understand Aristotle and wondering about how this makes him see the Qur'an in a different light, while also practicing medicine, rather than dismiss his religion, cultural, philosophical, and social background and just concentrate on his medical discoveries.

Yeah I know... You don't seem to have actually read my post.
Philosophy is the pursuit of knowledge, natural philosophy is only different by how it goes about these things. I also mentioned metaphysics which is a widened version of theology (I would argue that metaphysics describes Avicenna's work a lot better than theology)..
There's a difference between mysticism and philosophy though (they however bleed into one another to a degree). And it has nothing to do with the split between natural philosophy and metaphysics.

Like I said I definitely think that philosophy ought to be represented in the game along with it's tensions, but the whole secret society cult mystic thing seems a bit to Dan Brown for my tastes.

 

[BlackPrince]

Sounds like we get monk orders and fleshed out heresies and playable Theocracies(?).

 

[loup99]

Way I see it almost every area in Europe experienced some kind of melting pots.

Greek rule of the Egyptians resulted in partial Greco-Egyptian culture.

Roman rule of the Britons resulted in Romano-Briton culture.

rule of the Saxons over Romano-Britons, Angles and Jutes resulted in Anglo-Saxon culture.

Roman rule of the Gauls resulted in Gaul-Roman culture.

Frankish rule of the Gaul-Romans resulted in French culture.

Roman rule of the Celtiberians resulted in Hispano-Roman culture.

Visigothic rule of the Hispano-Romans resulted in Léonese culture.

Lombard rule of the Romans resulted in Italians.

Frankish rule of the Germanics resulted in High German culture.

High German rule of the Saxons resulted in Low German culture.

Norse rule of the Irish resulted in Norse-Gael culture.

English rule of the Irish resulted in Anglo-Irish culture.

Goidelic rule of the Pictish resulted in Scottish Gaelic culture.

Scottish Gaelic rule of the English resulted in Scott culture.

German rule of the Old Prussians resulted in Prussian culture.

Norse rule of the East Slavs resulted in Russian culture.

Need I say more?

Some of the instances mentioned are outside the game time-frame. Furthermore, a melting-pot currently in the base game is just about an event with a chance to fire based on fairly simple conditions, without much more to it. Government, religion and other factors played a large role in so-called melting-pots and the process was far more gradual. Just because a county was ruled by someone of a perceived different culture, a dynamic melting-pot did not happen. That is why I'm sceptic to the notion of entirely dynamic melting-pots as a priority, before investing more time into the base functionality. Because having a melting-pot when Tribal Norse Norwegians mix with Hindu "Feudal" Bengali provinces out of the blue would not be an improvement in my opinion. Cultures and people didn't start mingling and mixing all of a sudden, or at least not to the account culture is represented in the game, otherwise there were of course many exchanges.

It would expand prosperity and disease out breaks. Currently none of it matters in long term. After the diseases leaves the province it is exactly same as before the epidemic. Worst epidemic should so much damage that it takes about a century to recover from.

Why would having base values be better than just expanding upon prosperity with more levels and impacts, adding more trade goods and a more dynamic "population" in general? I prefer the prosperity system to EU4's values, as those do not evolve in a dynamic way.

 

[KlinkerFyren]

Heresy Everywhere! Recruit Inquisitors form the clergy estate! Enact full purge policy!

 

[zebez]

Sounds great! The more weird and fucked up shit you guys add the better

 

[sgg167]

I'm gonna write down of what I kind of want in this DLC.
1) playable monastic orders or theocracies.
2) revamping all the heresies in the game, to give them their unique special flavour.
3) make your own religion become the next Messiah or your own god.
4) requesting inquisitorial's to clean out those nasty little heretics

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Heresies are one of the few original systems that have yet to receive a rework, and it shows. Definitely looking forward to them getting an update.

 

[TheDungen]

I'm gonna write down of what I kind of want in this DLC.
1) playable monastic orders or theocracies.
2) revamping all the heresies in the game, to give them their unique special flavour.
3) make your own religion become the next Messiah or your own god.
4) requesting inquisitorial's to clean out those nasty little heretics

1. Yes please!
2. Not only revamping them but making them dynamic so that the beliefs of them can change over time. Catholicism as it is is very much a product of it's specific history.
3. I disagree here.
4. the rumours of the inquisition is greatly exaggerated.

 

[riadach]

Sects!

No thanks, we're British.

(I'm not, I swear).

 

[Karl Franz]

Please, add a button to raise levys inside ships. It's so tedious every war click 1000 times to select troops and embark them.

So, so tedious.

Some popular support in this petition would be great.

Thanks, and best regards.

 

[riadach]

I wonder will there be rites. Latin rites, Celtic rites and ability to evolve into separate religions or heresies?

 

[Kapitalisti]

But can we actually worship Lucifer?

I mean really, not in the Messalian kinda sorta way.

 

[TheDungen]

I wonder will there be rites. Latin rites, Celtic rites and ability to evolve in separate religions or heresies?

I would rather see syncretism with local paganism. Jesus is now a guy with a hammer.