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Stellaris Dev Diary #54 - Ethics Rework

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Now that 1.4 is out, we can finally start properly talking about the 1.5 'Banks' update, which will be a major update with an accompanying (unannounced) expansion. As of right now we cannot provide any details on when 1.5 will come out, or anything about the unannounced expansion, so please don't ask. :)

Today's topic is a number of changes coming to ethics in the 1.5 update. Everything in this diary is part of the free update. Please note that values shown in screenshots are always non-final.

Authoritarian vs Egalitarian
One of the things in Stellaris I was never personally happy with was the Collectivism vs Individualism ethic. While interesting conceptually, the mechanics that the game presented for the ethics simply did not match either their meanings or flavor text, meaning you ended up with a Collectivist ethos that was somehow simultaneously egalitarian and 100% in on slavery, while Individualism was a confused jumble between liberal democratic values and randian free-market capitalism. For this reason we've decided to rebrand these ethics into something that should both be much more clear in its meaning, and match the mechanics as they are.

Authoritarian replaces Collectivist and represents belief in hierarchial rule and orderly, stratified societies. Authoritarian pops tolerate slavery and prefer to live in autocracies.
Egalitarian replaces Individualist and represents belief in individual rights and a level playing field. Egalitarian pops dislike slavery and elitism and prefer to live in democracies.

While I understand this may cause some controversy and will no doubt spark debate over people's interpretation of words like Authoritarian and Individualist, I believe that we need to work with the mechanics we have, and as it stand we simply do not have good mechanics for a Collectivism vs Individualism axis while the mechanics we have fit the rebranded ethics if not perfectly then at least a whole lot better.
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Pop Ethics Rework
Another mechanic that never quite felt satisfying is the ethics divergence mechanic. Not only is it overly simplified with just a single value determining if pops go towards or from empire ethics, the shift rarely makes sense: Why would xenophobe alien pops diverge away from xenophobe just because they're far away from the capital of a xenophobic empire? Furthermore, the fact that pops could have anything from one to three different ethics made it extremely difficult to actually quantify what any individual pop's ethics actually mean for how they relate to the empire. For this reason we've decided to revamp the way pop ethics work in the following way:
  • Each pop in your empire will now only embrace a single, non-fanatic ethic. At the start of the game, your population will be made of up of only the ethics that you picked in species setup, but as your empire grows, its population will become more diverse in their views and wants.
  • Each ethic now has an attraction value for each pop in your empire depending on both the empire's situation and their own situation. For example, enslaved pops tend to become more egalitarian, while pops living around non-enslaved aliens become more xenophilic (and pops living around enslaved aliens more xenophobic). Conversely, fighting a lot of wars will increase the attraction for militarism across your entire empire, while an alien empire purging pops of a particular species will massively increase the attraction for xenophobic for the species being purged.
  • Over time, the ethics of your pops will drift in such a way that it roughly matches the overall attraction of that value. For example, if your materialist attraction sits at 10% for decades, it's likely that after that time, around 10% of your pops will be materialist. There is some random factor so it's likely never going to match up perfectly, but the system is built to try and go towards the mean, so the more overrepresented an ethic is compared to its attraction, the more likely pops are to drift away from it and vice versa.
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So what does the single ethic per pop mean in terms of how it affects pop happiness? Well, this brings us to the new faction system, which we will cover briefly in this dev diary, and get back to more in depth later.

Faction Rework
One thing we feel is currently missing from Stellaris is agency for your pops. Sure, they have their ethics and will get upset if you have policies that don't suit them, but that's about the only way they have of expressing their desires, and there is no tie-in between pop ethics and the politics systems in the game. To address this and also to create a system that will better fit the new pop ethics, we've decided to revamp the faction system in the following manner:
  • Factions are no longer purely rebel groupings, but instead represent political parties, popular movements and other such interest groups, and mostly only consist of pops of certain ethics. For example, the Supremacist faction desires complete political dominance for their own species, and is made up exclusively of Xenophobic pops, while the Isolationist faction wants diplomatic isolation and a strong defense, and can be joined by both Pacifist and Xenophobe pops. You do not start the game with any factions, but rather they will form over the course of the game as their interests become relevant
  • Factions have issues related to their values and goals, and how well the empire responds to those issues will determine the overall happiness level of the faction. For example, the Supremacists want the ruler to be of their species and are displeased by the presence of free alien populations in the empire. They will also get a temporary happiness boost whenever you defeat alien empires in war.
  • The happiness level of a faction determines the base happiness of all pops belonging to it. This means that where any pop not belonging to a faction has a base happiness of 50%, a pop belonging to a faction that have their happiness reduced to 35% because of their issues will have a base happiness of only 35% before any other modifiers are applied, meaning that displeasing a large and influential faction can result in vastly reduced productivity across your empire. As part of this, happiness effects from policies, xenophobia, slavery, etc have been merged into the faction system, so engaging in alien slavery will displease certain factions instead of having each pop individually react to it.
  • Factions have an influence level determined by the number of pops that belong to it. In addition to making its pops happier, a happy faction will provide an influence boost to their empire.
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We will come back to factions in greater detail in a later dev diary, going over topics such as how separatists and rebellious slaves will work, and how factions can be used to change your empire ethics, but for now we are done for today. Next week we'll be talking about another new feature that we have dubbed 'Traditions and Unity'. See you then!
 
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So, if I understand this right, every pop (except the ones you start with) now have only one single ethic, and that ethic is always non-fanatic?
No POP unit ever starts with more than one ethic- your empire's population will begin a proportional mix of your government's ethics, and will then begin to drift from there based on various relevant factors.

So no more Fanatic militaris+Xenophobe pops? either militarist, or xenophobe, and never any fanatics?
Yes.

I assume, that you reworked all the ethics to fit that system, right? I mean Materialist pops got a bonus to research output on their tile, and this one was higher when they were fanatic. And of course the growth time for Spiritualist pops, wich was even better with fanatics. Now that pops only can have a single non fanatic ethos, I'm sure you rebalanced that stuff, right?
I can't see how they wouldn't have- they're not going to gut half the POP mechanics and then not replace them with anything else. It's a total overhaul to the mechanic- they'll have taken that functionality into account somehow.



So, each race can have their own supremacy faction, do I understand this correctly? And each of this factions desires to take controll of the empire, wich means their species will become the dominant one, and their ethics will become the empires ethics, is this correct?
Species don't have inherent ethics and POPs only have one given ethic, so I can't imagine that's how it works. They're gonna explain how changes to your government's ethics work in a later Dev Diary.
 
I like everything proposed in this dev diary except for one significant thing:

Please don't *replace* collectivist and individualist with authoritarian and egalitarian, but add the latter two as a new axis. By removing fanatic collectivist specifically you remove the entire concept of hive-mind gameplay style, which I prefer to play. I think this is a pretty big deal when you have a whole species portrait group dedicated to insectoids. Individualist can still have it's place in the sun too, and there's no reason in my mind that collective authoritarian, collective egalitarian, individual authoritarian, etc. are all incompatible, I just haven't thought through yet how they pair up exactly. I imagine that new governments would be needed as well, but more content is not a bad thing in my book
 
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I like everything proposed in this dev diary except for one significant thing:

Please don't *replace* collectivist and individualist with authoritarian and egalitarian, but add the latter two as a new axis. By removing fanatic collectivist specifically you remove the entire concept of hive-mind gameplay style, which I prefer to play. I think this is a pretty big deal when you have a whole species portrait group dedicated to insectoids. Individualist can still have it's place in the sun too, and there's no reason in my mind that collective authoritarian, collective egalitarian, individual authoritarian, etc. are all incompatible, I just haven't thought through yet how they pair up exactly. I imagine that new governments would be needed as well, but more content is not a bad thing in my book
It's already been explained at length by the devs that they don't have a mechanic to tie "individualism vs. collectivism" to- there's not a good way to represent it in-game..
 
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It's already been explained at length by the devs that they don't have a mechanic to tie "individualism vs. collectivism" to- there's not a good way to represent it in-game..

maybe individualists and collectivists should become some sort of species trait instead of an government ethic. i think this would be a better place for them anyway.


Edit: they should offer something different from the current traits though, which will return us to ground zero, cause right now there is now suitable mechanic in place ^^
 
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maybe individualists and collectivists should become some sort of species trait instead of an government ethic. i think this would be a better place for them anyway.

Edit: they should offer something different from the current traits though, which will return us to ground zero, cause right now there is now suitable mechanic in place ^^
What new mechanic would you propose for new ethics to govern? Keeping ethos limited in number and clear in relation to each other allows much clearer gameplay and reading of other empires and how they relate to yours in opinion and practices.
 
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This is an excellent development. The devs just keep making this game better. Haters gonna hate, I'm just gonna keep playing. cant wait

Edit: fanboyism aside, please get the new update and expansion thoroughly beta-tested. Some of the bugs on 1.4 are just horrific.
 
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Lovely changes, this is the kind of direction I was hoping Stellaris would take from the start.

A few concerns that I've seen others raze are one I would like to echo.

First how will this all work with sectors? I can see it being quite frustrating to havefaction issues becasue your sector is doing something stupid.

Second, how will info about POPs ethics and factions be displayed om map or on planet? Generally info delivery feels a bit lacking in Stellaris so I hope this has been thought of.

A final thing unrelated to the DD is..... please add a ship macro builder and extra bonus cockies for a fleet template as well!!!!
 
Lovely changes, this is the kind of direction I was hoping Stellaris would take from the start.

A few concerns that I've seen others raze are one I would like to echo.

First how will this all work with sectors? I can see it being quite frustrating to havefaction issues becasue your sector is doing something stupid.

Second, how will info about POPs ethics and factions be displayed om map or on planet? Generally info delivery feels a bit lacking in Stellaris so I hope this has been thought of.

A final thing unrelated to the DD is..... please add a ship macro builder and extra bonus cockies for a fleet template as well!!!!

A problem with fleet template will probably be programming it to make proper use of the specialized fleet production facilities (eg, make the fleet as cheaply as possible, build battleships on the planet with the +5% armour rare material).
 
What new mechanic would you propose for new ethics to govern? Keeping ethos limited in number and clear in relation to each other allows much clearer gameplay and reading of other empires and how they relate to yours in opinion and practices.

wasn't referring to government ethic. just saying in my opinion individualism and collectivism are more traits than ethics, but there are already similar traits (conformists, don't no the other in english) in place. Wiz said they will maybe readd them as ethics, but they now have no decent mechanic at hand. i realised in the edit that this would also be the case in traits, because there already are such traits and moving it wouldn't do any good.

i consider keeping the ethic weel as clear as possible a good thing, although i wouldn't consider upping it up from 4 to 5 mutual exclusive pairs overcrowded either.
 
A problem with fleet template will probably be programming it to make proper use of the specialized fleet production facilities (eg, make the fleet as cheaply as possible, build battleships on the planet with the +5% armour rare material).

Yes. After all should a BB with kinetics favor a ship yard that makes building a BB cheaper/faster or one that boosts kinetic strength? I'm sure there is a solution but the macro builder would work just fine as longs as there are informative tool tips based on what you have selected to build.
 
wasn't referring to government ethic. just saying in my opinion individualism and collectivism are more traits than ethics, but there are already ethics in place. Wiz said they will maybe readd them as ethics, but they now have no decent mechanic at hand. i realised in the edit that this is also the case in traits, because there already are such traits and moving it wouldn't do any good.

i consider keeping the ethic weel as clear as possible a good thing, although i wouldn't consider upping it up from 4 to 5 mutual exclusive pairs overcrowded either.
I'd say that ultimately hive-style organizations are treated as much more of an "RP thing" in Stellaris- there's an AI personality that's fluffed as one despite no mechanical representation, and the default races include the Jehet'ma, which are huge fungal macrocolonies.

Basically, I've RPed a few of my civilizations as various forms of eusocial or hive-minded society. It might be better (or indeed, hard not to) keep things that way, given the mechanical limitations of the game. Again, every species needs to be integratable by every other, which demands a baseline psychology treated as basically human or human-compatible.
 
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wasn't referring to government ethic. just saying in my opinion individualism and collectivism are more traits than ethics, but there are already similar traits (conformists, don't no the other in english) in place. Wiz said they will maybe readd them as ethics, but they now have no decent mechanic at hand. i realised in the edit that this would also be the case in traits, because there already are such traits and moving it wouldn't do any good.

i consider keeping the ethic weel as clear as possible a good thing, although i wouldn't consider upping it up from 4 to 5 mutual exclusive pairs overcrowded either.

Well, Individualism <----> Collectivism could be sort of an innate trait you had to select between.

It'd create some interesting dynamics though. What is a democracy to do when it "liberates" a hive mind being from its controller? How can it possible learn to behave as a proper citizen? is it okay to use it almost as a robot? Should some sort of mental conditioning be used to "teach" it independence?

At the same time, if a hive mind captures a colony of non-hiveminders. What should it do? Permit an enclave of conscious servants? Mind control them? Isn't that wrong when the hive mind species naturally forms a system of few conscious beings and many workers and the captured people do not?

If such a thing was introduced though, the hive mind species should have entirely different gameplay than other empires. I sort of miss that a bit, since there isn't much difference between playing a fanatically collectivist/spiritualist Empire or a Fanatically Individualist democracy.

I used to be against such things as spiritualism having specific religious gameplay, but I've changed my mind - I hope game development eventually means greater differences in gameplay for different ethics.
 
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Having in consideration that egalitarian vs authoritarian has tackle the problem with Individualist vs Colectivist, I just have an idea:


What about a new weal that symbolize the “Psyche" of a species, being "Individual" or "Collectivist" (Hive mind), "Emphatic" " Apathetic", "Hard rational" "Sentimentalist", to say some examples, some of the choices. Something that it doesn't affect the government but the pops forever until a tech called “mind control” or “Brain alteration” is research (And being a policy that forbids or encourage those usages of technology).
 
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Yes. After all should a BB with kinetics favor a ship yard that makes building a BB cheaper/faster or one that boosts kinetic strength? I'm sure there is a solution but the macro builder would work just fine as longs as there are informative tool tips based on what you have selected to build.

I can imagine a system of designating specific star port to specific ships in a fleet builder, though it'd be a bit cumbersome to set up for the player and... I'm not a programmer, so i don't know about programming it.

Eg: Basic corvette #1 can be made in star port A, B and C, #2 only in C, Battleship #1 and #2 must be made in D.

Or perhaps the reverse, on star ports classify it as a "standard producer" of some ships such as Standard Corvette #1 and #2.
 
Having in consideration that egalitarian vs authoritarian has tackle the problem with Individualist vs Colectivist, I just have an idea:


What about a new weal that symbolize the “Psyche" of a species, being "Individual" or "Collectivist" (Hive mind), "Emphatic" " Apathetic", "Hard rational" "Sentimentalist", to say some examples, some of the choices. Something that it doesn't affect the government but the pops forever until a tech called “mind control” or “Brain alteration” is research (And being a policy that forbids or encourage those usages of technology).
At face value, that seems... over-complicated, and probably really cumbersome and unintuitive?

Like, I'd need to see a working and streamlined model of that mocked up before I supported it in any way.
 
Can you add some trait for race that doesn't mind slavery, like ants? Fanatic Authoritarian ant colonies need some happy slaves who have no intention on moving towards Egalitarian.
 
You've been able to do that since the game's release:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...evert-stellaris-to-a-previous-version.954474/

You can revert to 1.0.3 if you'd like.
not that totally true, look yourself.. i mean, i looked myself yesterday.. and i cant revert to the last build prior to 1.4 which was 1.3.2

so what are my options now.. revert to an not optimal version 1.3 or stick with an not optimal version 1.4.. surely i would like to revert to an not optimal version 1.3.2, which i see as the best actually build, but for sure this is my opinion and last but not least, it is not available..

but thx, you try to suggest a solution

edit: okay now it changed again, yesterday it was not 100% clear it is 1.3.2, now it is
 
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After read this dev diary, I was like...

Part 1 - No sense of this change. More of this - if you "give" Authoritarian and Egalitarian, then why Colectiv cannot stay? Every ethic they give to us is base on human ethic. Colectiv, as a Hive Mind, is something beyond it. One mind, who order milions. And NO. It is not the same as Authoritarian, because...

Part 2 - So... my drons will change they ethic because ... reason? Again, you make every alien in game human. If I go road of F. Materialist + Colectiv, and purge someone, because they are not part of my hive, then my drons (some of them) will suddenly be attracted by mili/xenophobe ethic? And I, as a Hive Queen/King, I cannot say NO? Or I can, by purge them, and be hated by everyone? And more of this, my drons can be unhappy, because...

Part 3 - Realy?! Factions?! My drons will make faction? Sure, from whot I see on screen, I can have some positive effect when they are on good term, and bad if ... wait... I see this before, but "it's" name is different - Estate in EU4! Nope! I'am done!

If this "Traditions and Unity" diary will say something like - Faction, or lack of it etc, will depend on starting ethic - And I will read about it more, then maybe, Maybe, I will back to this game.

Stop making every alien race Human!
 
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