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Wizzington

Game Director (Victoria 3)
Paradox Staff
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Nov 15, 2007
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Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Now that 1.4 is out, we can finally start properly talking about the 1.5 'Banks' update, which will be a major update with an accompanying (unannounced) expansion. As of right now we cannot provide any details on when 1.5 will come out, or anything about the unannounced expansion, so please don't ask. :)

Today's topic is a number of changes coming to ethics in the 1.5 update. Everything in this diary is part of the free update. Please note that values shown in screenshots are always non-final.

Authoritarian vs Egalitarian
One of the things in Stellaris I was never personally happy with was the Collectivism vs Individualism ethic. While interesting conceptually, the mechanics that the game presented for the ethics simply did not match either their meanings or flavor text, meaning you ended up with a Collectivist ethos that was somehow simultaneously egalitarian and 100% in on slavery, while Individualism was a confused jumble between liberal democratic values and randian free-market capitalism. For this reason we've decided to rebrand these ethics into something that should both be much more clear in its meaning, and match the mechanics as they are.

Authoritarian replaces Collectivist and represents belief in hierarchial rule and orderly, stratified societies. Authoritarian pops tolerate slavery and prefer to live in autocracies.
Egalitarian replaces Individualist and represents belief in individual rights and a level playing field. Egalitarian pops dislike slavery and elitism and prefer to live in democracies.

While I understand this may cause some controversy and will no doubt spark debate over people's interpretation of words like Authoritarian and Individualist, I believe that we need to work with the mechanics we have, and as it stand we simply do not have good mechanics for a Collectivism vs Individualism axis while the mechanics we have fit the rebranded ethics if not perfectly then at least a whole lot better.
2016_12_08_1.png

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Pop Ethics Rework
Another mechanic that never quite felt satisfying is the ethics divergence mechanic. Not only is it overly simplified with just a single value determining if pops go towards or from empire ethics, the shift rarely makes sense: Why would xenophobe alien pops diverge away from xenophobe just because they're far away from the capital of a xenophobic empire? Furthermore, the fact that pops could have anything from one to three different ethics made it extremely difficult to actually quantify what any individual pop's ethics actually mean for how they relate to the empire. For this reason we've decided to revamp the way pop ethics work in the following way:
  • Each pop in your empire will now only embrace a single, non-fanatic ethic. At the start of the game, your population will be made of up of only the ethics that you picked in species setup, but as your empire grows, its population will become more diverse in their views and wants.
  • Each ethic now has an attraction value for each pop in your empire depending on both the empire's situation and their own situation. For example, enslaved pops tend to become more egalitarian, while pops living around non-enslaved aliens become more xenophilic (and pops living around enslaved aliens more xenophobic). Conversely, fighting a lot of wars will increase the attraction for militarism across your entire empire, while an alien empire purging pops of a particular species will massively increase the attraction for xenophobic for the species being purged.
  • Over time, the ethics of your pops will drift in such a way that it roughly matches the overall attraction of that value. For example, if your materialist attraction sits at 10% for decades, it's likely that after that time, around 10% of your pops will be materialist. There is some random factor so it's likely never going to match up perfectly, but the system is built to try and go towards the mean, so the more overrepresented an ethic is compared to its attraction, the more likely pops are to drift away from it and vice versa.
2016_12_08_3.png


So what does the single ethic per pop mean in terms of how it affects pop happiness? Well, this brings us to the new faction system, which we will cover briefly in this dev diary, and get back to more in depth later.

Faction Rework
One thing we feel is currently missing from Stellaris is agency for your pops. Sure, they have their ethics and will get upset if you have policies that don't suit them, but that's about the only way they have of expressing their desires, and there is no tie-in between pop ethics and the politics systems in the game. To address this and also to create a system that will better fit the new pop ethics, we've decided to revamp the faction system in the following manner:
  • Factions are no longer purely rebel groupings, but instead represent political parties, popular movements and other such interest groups, and mostly only consist of pops of certain ethics. For example, the Supremacist faction desires complete political dominance for their own species, and is made up exclusively of Xenophobic pops, while the Isolationist faction wants diplomatic isolation and a strong defense, and can be joined by both Pacifist and Xenophobe pops. You do not start the game with any factions, but rather they will form over the course of the game as their interests become relevant
  • Factions have issues related to their values and goals, and how well the empire responds to those issues will determine the overall happiness level of the faction. For example, the Supremacists want the ruler to be of their species and are displeased by the presence of free alien populations in the empire. They will also get a temporary happiness boost whenever you defeat alien empires in war.
  • The happiness level of a faction determines the base happiness of all pops belonging to it. This means that where any pop not belonging to a faction has a base happiness of 50%, a pop belonging to a faction that have their happiness reduced to 35% because of their issues will have a base happiness of only 35% before any other modifiers are applied, meaning that displeasing a large and influential faction can result in vastly reduced productivity across your empire. As part of this, happiness effects from policies, xenophobia, slavery, etc have been merged into the faction system, so engaging in alien slavery will displease certain factions instead of having each pop individually react to it.
  • Factions have an influence level determined by the number of pops that belong to it. In addition to making its pops happier, a happy faction will provide an influence boost to their empire.
2016_12_08_4.png

2016_12_08_2.png


We will come back to factions in greater detail in a later dev diary, going over topics such as how separatists and rebellious slaves will work, and how factions can be used to change your empire ethics, but for now we are done for today. Next week we'll be talking about another new feature that we have dubbed 'Traditions and Unity'. See you then!
 
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Two quick follow-up questions:
-Can pops only join a single faction?
-Is the attraction of a certain faction an empire-wide or planet-wide value?

1) Yes.
2) It's pop-dependent, much like attraction to ethics. There are empire wide factors though, ofc.
 
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I agree that ethics could use a rework, but I'm still not quite understand how it will play out. Do pops with one ethics tend to gather on one planet? If not, what happens when one particular ethics (like egalitarians in some slavery autocracy for example) gets rebellious but is scattered across the empire?

No, ethics will not be concentrated like this, though planets may have very different ethic makeups based on local conditions.

Rebellions will be covered in a later dev diary.
 
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Even if this will put game mechanic in order, overall it feel very un-sci-fi. Now it feels like instead of alien races we have different human societies. - f.e.
makes sense for humans, but what if there is some alien society with very strong caste society? And slaves is just a lower caste, but due millennia this species lived with such a system no "unhappy" individuals left.

A society like that would presumably have traits that make the attraction to government ethics very strong, cancelling out the increased attraction to egalitarian. It's not like every slave is instantly going to become egalitarian, it's just a factor.
 
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So, traits'll have a rework too? Or just traits that currently affect ED will be swapped to reflect new system?

The 'Ethics Divergence' modifier is replaced with a 'Government Ethics Attraction' modifier.
 
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Overall it sounds good to me.

Will there be any new techs that will affect all pops of all factions alike?
Like a social tech presenting a new way of thinking(f.e. "they now what they are doing" - gives +5% base happiness to all factions in a autocratic government type)

Will there be any distinction between local and global?
Meaning pops will look mostly on their planet regarding ethics. (f.e. democratic societies could research something like "planetary senate", which will reduce the chance of pops with ethos different to government to join a global, empire wide faction.) What about "information quarantine"? How will it effect my empire?

In general, will there be ways to manage pop behaviour somewhat besides politics? I am guessing edicts will get a rework as well to match the new systems, right?

Each pop has its own individual attraction to each ethic, so local conditions definitely matter.
 
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But... the ethic change is in the free update. What if the DLC is about something completely stupid, like adding China as a fallen empire that covers half the galaxy, but has no mechanics, can't be interacted with, and won't be updated or improved on ever? Also every single Chinese ship one shots everything else.

... who leaked?!
 
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1 ethic per pop? And here I was asking for unlimited ethics per pop or even that every pop got placed on a spectrum for every ethos pairing. I don't get why you seem to fond of discrete states these days.

Because you now in reality everyone has an opinion on pretty much everything.

That would be even more of a confused mess and end up making pops far less distinct. This is a game, not real life, and abstractions are needed for good gameplay.
 
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HI Wiz! Does that mean that species traits can affect ethics atractions for each species (either by default or by modding)?

Yes, in multiple ways. For example, being around Repugnant aliens will make pops more Xenophobic.
 
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Really nice ! One little question though :

Does this mean that you can have one xenophobe faction per species in your empire? It wouldn't make much sense If all xenophobe species were groupped together in the same faction, but it would easily create a lot of factions for the same ethos if there's one faction for each species that has xenophobe pops.

You will not have supremacists from different species sharing a faction. That would make very little sense. They could be in the same isolationist faction though.
 
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I notice that the icons for individualism and collectivism are completely gone, and have a question:

Are the old ethos gone forever, completely replaced by the new ones? Or have you made the distinction between, say, collectivist/authoritarian so that both ethos exist, they are just different. (Authoritarian gets all the slavery techs, collectivist gets the cooperative techs like ministry of benevolence, social welfare and frontier collectives)

I know I would certainly prefer to have both, since a player could choose to be say, authoritarian collectivist or egalitarian collectivist. Though it appears a small difference, the populous of both governments would be managed totally differently. Thoughts?

They're gone. I'm not ruling out that they might return, but only if we have mechanics to actually support them.
 
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Concerned about the ethics drift.

Why would pops start without a fanatic version of traits if your empire starts as fanatics?

If you have fanatic empire ethics you get a higher attraction towards that ethic, so overall more of your population will follow it.
 
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So no pops will ever themselves have fanatic ethics? It's just a "hard drift" direction based on empire?

That seems odd, because it means there is no starting difference between a race of "normal" xenophobes and fanatic xenophobes from initial pop setup.

Fanatic Xenophobe will have a bigger xenophobic population, both at start and later on. It also matters for faction attraction, so the fanatic xenophobe empire will be more supremacist and slavery/purge happy than a non-fanatic one.
 
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Exciting! Banks is gonna be 'the' patch. Traditions sounds interesting too, they sound very EU4 like.



Will we be notified when this is happening, if it's relevant to pops in our empire? The only way to tell if this is happening currently is if you periodically check AI planets.

Will we be notified if conditions change that effect ethics drift, especially if it's not something we've initiated?

More (optional) information about what's going on in other empires is one of my aims for 1.5 (that is not a 100% ironclad promise though).
 
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Fair enough.

One more question, if you don't mind: are ethics the only factor that affects whether or not a pop will join a faction, or are the others - e.g. being on a new colony, working a certain type of tile etc?

Some of the ones in the screenshot don't look especially ethos specific, like the Stellar Pioneers Committee or the Mercantile guild.

There are other factors as well, and not all factions are tied to a specific ethic.
 
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Will factions cause problems if not cared for? Will Spiritualists start to hate me when I mass-produce robots and so on? That'd be some awesome RP potential if expanded on.

This will be covered in detail in a later dev diary but yes.
 
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I consider Egalitarian to be a perfectly valid antithesis to Authoritarian. A society where most people are at the whim of a ruling elite is not an egalitarian society no matter how well the masses are treated. That doesn't mean an authoritarian society can't have egalitarian elements (for example, a high degree of meritocracy in its bureaucracy) but that's true for all the ethics... even the most pacifist society will have militaristic elements, and I doubt religion and spirituality is completely gone even in the most materialist empires.

All that aside... only polsci freshmen and internet charts believe that libertarianism is some kind of antithesis to authoritarianism. Seriously.
 
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How does a democracy with a very powerful authoritarian government factor into this, though?

I guess they would be at the middle of the scale? It's not like you have to be egalitarian to pick a democratic government.
 
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The real problem with that change from Collectivist/Individualist to Authoritarian/Egalitarian is the timing.

The culprit like some have identified in the thread is "Egalitarian".

The term has a very special meaning in that new phenomenon that people like to call "the Alt-Right", it denotes the propensity people have of ignoring existing differences (like genitals) to present everything as the same.
In the aftermath of Trump's election, to which Wiz has *personally* reacted to in a very unfavorable manner, having not only Collectivist changed into Authoritarian and Egalitarian shoved there, especially with that very moralizing description it has... Collectivist gets absolved, Authoritarian gets added with the obvious stigma it has, and that to put Egalitarian in the shiniest light possible. Seems like a message toward them.

I very much doubt this change is motivated by mechanics. Collectivists putting the group above the individual fits them putting part of their populations in forced labor. Ants are not evil for having worker ants, it's just what they are. Individualist matches the economical and Energy aspect. They made perfect sense.
Someone PLEASE explain to me why an Egalitarian species would have a bigger propensity to create the Ultra-Entertainment-Forum?? THAT makes Zero sense.

This change was planned long before Trump's election and something me (and not just me) wanted to do for far longer than that. Drop the ad-homs. I also don't know what the hell genitalia has to do with the naming of ethics in Stellaris, and I really don't want to know either.

Do not assume buildings and mechanics will 100% stay the same. They won't.
 
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Isn't there a really popular mod that adds a bunch of new ethics and governments? Unless Wiz plans to shut down the hooks for modding that, this is just a lot of pissing in the wind. IMHO.

Nah, if anything the new ethics system is far, far more moddable than the old one. Especially the way attraction and factions work.
 
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