• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellaris Dev Diary #54 - Ethics Rework

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Now that 1.4 is out, we can finally start properly talking about the 1.5 'Banks' update, which will be a major update with an accompanying (unannounced) expansion. As of right now we cannot provide any details on when 1.5 will come out, or anything about the unannounced expansion, so please don't ask. :)

Today's topic is a number of changes coming to ethics in the 1.5 update. Everything in this diary is part of the free update. Please note that values shown in screenshots are always non-final.

Authoritarian vs Egalitarian
One of the things in Stellaris I was never personally happy with was the Collectivism vs Individualism ethic. While interesting conceptually, the mechanics that the game presented for the ethics simply did not match either their meanings or flavor text, meaning you ended up with a Collectivist ethos that was somehow simultaneously egalitarian and 100% in on slavery, while Individualism was a confused jumble between liberal democratic values and randian free-market capitalism. For this reason we've decided to rebrand these ethics into something that should both be much more clear in its meaning, and match the mechanics as they are.

Authoritarian replaces Collectivist and represents belief in hierarchial rule and orderly, stratified societies. Authoritarian pops tolerate slavery and prefer to live in autocracies.
Egalitarian replaces Individualist and represents belief in individual rights and a level playing field. Egalitarian pops dislike slavery and elitism and prefer to live in democracies.

While I understand this may cause some controversy and will no doubt spark debate over people's interpretation of words like Authoritarian and Individualist, I believe that we need to work with the mechanics we have, and as it stand we simply do not have good mechanics for a Collectivism vs Individualism axis while the mechanics we have fit the rebranded ethics if not perfectly then at least a whole lot better.
2016_12_08_1.png

2016_12_08_5.png


Pop Ethics Rework
Another mechanic that never quite felt satisfying is the ethics divergence mechanic. Not only is it overly simplified with just a single value determining if pops go towards or from empire ethics, the shift rarely makes sense: Why would xenophobe alien pops diverge away from xenophobe just because they're far away from the capital of a xenophobic empire? Furthermore, the fact that pops could have anything from one to three different ethics made it extremely difficult to actually quantify what any individual pop's ethics actually mean for how they relate to the empire. For this reason we've decided to revamp the way pop ethics work in the following way:
  • Each pop in your empire will now only embrace a single, non-fanatic ethic. At the start of the game, your population will be made of up of only the ethics that you picked in species setup, but as your empire grows, its population will become more diverse in their views and wants.
  • Each ethic now has an attraction value for each pop in your empire depending on both the empire's situation and their own situation. For example, enslaved pops tend to become more egalitarian, while pops living around non-enslaved aliens become more xenophilic (and pops living around enslaved aliens more xenophobic). Conversely, fighting a lot of wars will increase the attraction for militarism across your entire empire, while an alien empire purging pops of a particular species will massively increase the attraction for xenophobic for the species being purged.
  • Over time, the ethics of your pops will drift in such a way that it roughly matches the overall attraction of that value. For example, if your materialist attraction sits at 10% for decades, it's likely that after that time, around 10% of your pops will be materialist. There is some random factor so it's likely never going to match up perfectly, but the system is built to try and go towards the mean, so the more overrepresented an ethic is compared to its attraction, the more likely pops are to drift away from it and vice versa.
2016_12_08_3.png


So what does the single ethic per pop mean in terms of how it affects pop happiness? Well, this brings us to the new faction system, which we will cover briefly in this dev diary, and get back to more in depth later.

Faction Rework
One thing we feel is currently missing from Stellaris is agency for your pops. Sure, they have their ethics and will get upset if you have policies that don't suit them, but that's about the only way they have of expressing their desires, and there is no tie-in between pop ethics and the politics systems in the game. To address this and also to create a system that will better fit the new pop ethics, we've decided to revamp the faction system in the following manner:
  • Factions are no longer purely rebel groupings, but instead represent political parties, popular movements and other such interest groups, and mostly only consist of pops of certain ethics. For example, the Supremacist faction desires complete political dominance for their own species, and is made up exclusively of Xenophobic pops, while the Isolationist faction wants diplomatic isolation and a strong defense, and can be joined by both Pacifist and Xenophobe pops. You do not start the game with any factions, but rather they will form over the course of the game as their interests become relevant
  • Factions have issues related to their values and goals, and how well the empire responds to those issues will determine the overall happiness level of the faction. For example, the Supremacists want the ruler to be of their species and are displeased by the presence of free alien populations in the empire. They will also get a temporary happiness boost whenever you defeat alien empires in war.
  • The happiness level of a faction determines the base happiness of all pops belonging to it. This means that where any pop not belonging to a faction has a base happiness of 50%, a pop belonging to a faction that have their happiness reduced to 35% because of their issues will have a base happiness of only 35% before any other modifiers are applied, meaning that displeasing a large and influential faction can result in vastly reduced productivity across your empire. As part of this, happiness effects from policies, xenophobia, slavery, etc have been merged into the faction system, so engaging in alien slavery will displease certain factions instead of having each pop individually react to it.
  • Factions have an influence level determined by the number of pops that belong to it. In addition to making its pops happier, a happy faction will provide an influence boost to their empire.
2016_12_08_4.png

2016_12_08_2.png


We will come back to factions in greater detail in a later dev diary, going over topics such as how separatists and rebellious slaves will work, and how factions can be used to change your empire ethics, but for now we are done for today. Next week we'll be talking about another new feature that we have dubbed 'Traditions and Unity'. See you then!
 
Last edited:
  • 367
  • 53
  • 17
Reactions:
Internal politics? Ethics changes in the POPs reacting to my actions, Ethics changes in the Empire from factions?

Totally on board. You will have always my attention if you implement internal politics.

Looking forward to Banks, guys.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Ok...but how do I more properly get my Borg (sans that stupid damned "queen")? I just want to grey goo the entire galaxy, that's all...be the disease across the stars that life really is...just like Agent Smith said.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
I think it's important to remember that this is a popcultural game, not a study of political science.

The left and right both agree they want what is best for the poor, but disagree wholly on the paths to get there seeing the end goal of the opposition as the exact diametrical opposite result of ones own desires even though it is stated same goals.

So getting people to agree on the definitions of whatever metaphysical concepts is utterly futile, the only thing that is important is that we as players get the options to play with the mechanics we want no matter what those mechanics are named.
 
Ok...but how do I more properly get my Borg (sans that stupid damned "queen")? I just want to grey goo the entire galaxy, that's all...be the disease across the stars that life really is...just like Agent Smith said.
Who needs endgame crises when you have players? :D
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
But if you get the dictionary, the antonyms of Egalitarian is NOT authoritarian, it is elitist, hierarchicall, etc.... If Authoritarian is not oposed in any way to egalitarian, why it is right to use them in the game this way??
It is fine to use it in the game in this way because it is a game mechanic - there are three broad types of Gov't (democractic/oligachic/autocratic), and as a game mechanic the designers have used the ethics system to model POP reactions to being under specific government types.

The unending discussion of defintions is silly because (a) it is a game mechanic, not a perfect depiction of reality* and (b) because there isn't an out and out, indisputable definition of these terms so anyone claiming that the whole ethics mechanic is inaccurate is just asserting their own understanding, not tapping into some ultimate truth**.

A dictionary has to be at least reasonably consise rather than as long winded as the thousands and thousands of pages of scholarly debate on the matter.

*Epistemologically speaking claiming a perfect reflection of reality is highly dodgy anyway.
** Again, dodgy.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
So it's simple a arbitrary definition you made for the game? Because this everyone has the same freedoms is contradicted by the game itself:
Both those arrangements are more equal than an autocratic model, because everyone has the potential to join the military or become part of the priesthood.

Everyone has the same opportunities.

That you're having this much trouble with that concept is sort of sad.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
This update looks to be sweet! I realy apreciate that you stick with the game for long term, it is what games today need to become truely great. We rather have few good games than 10000 half finished throw away titles.
 
If events don't quite fit, perhaps the solution is simply to rework them to include appropriate xenophile/xenophobe conditions.

The die is cast, there won't be reworks or changes, we are going to be stuck with that faux-Xenophile ethic for now.

But yeah, everything you have said in your post is exactly why I don't like this change, Individualist/Collectivist offered enough gameplay and flavor wise to be left alone, and now you have less way to represent a stellar corporate empire or something like that.

Our only solution, if it will even be possible, will be to mod out that change, we still have the old icons and such, most will be about rewriting some texts and changing some events.
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
But could we also talk about something slightly different? Namely about how the new icons are hideous? Both are pretty overcomplicated and IMHO don't mesh well with the simpler style of the previous ones. And the fact that authoritarian icon looks kinda like head of devil (or Krampus who is suddenly in vogue) while the one for egalitarians looks more like symbol for justice - as most of us in the West are conditioned to recognize - is not helping to fit them with the rest of the symbols that is mostly ethically agnostic. If I may suggest change, choose a horizontally stripped triangle for an Authoritarianism/Hierarchical and either solid square for Egalitarianism or if you insist on balanced scales, choose stylized long horizontal rectangle over a triangle, not this antiqued piece.
I like the icons for egalitarian. They make sense and are fitting for the ethos. The icons for authoritarian, on the other hand, I have no real opinion for or against. I'm sure they could think of something better, but I won't complain if that's the symbol they use.
 
I really like the ideas the devs are heading for.

The political game and internal struggle of an empire could add something to the mid-game which currently is a lot of empty space, after the first phase of exploration and expansion is already thrilling and promising, but however this changes if you survive the first snowballing fights - or not...

I would also suggest different ethics and different ideologies should have more severe impacts on gameplay in total, e.g. in research trees and diplomacy. While many special buildings are already locked to certain ethics, research should reflect this and offer both penalties and rewards for every ethics. Also you should have some options overcoming the disadvantages of your ethics, if you put some additional effort into this for unlocking new fields of research.

Also, those political struggles in empires should have massive repercussions on federations, so there should be an option to support certain factions in other empires.


PS: also factions could respond to external crisis, e.g. if an empire is in danger of total extinction via rivals or an end-game crisis.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Are there any bonuses to species themselves, not just the ethos but the way they look e.g. would an insectoid race gain a hive mind trait that helps gain a influence increase while a mammalian would gain increased a better living state for all (as in a happyness modifier due to fancy design rather than 10% building cost decrease)
 
Yay for more mechanics and internal gameplay! Really liking the faction system, not entirely sure about cutting pops down to a single ethos.

As for the people thinking about how the new authoritarian/egalitarian axis is going to fit slavery (or mourning the loss of collectivism), how about viewing it the other way? IMO, the slavery mechanics aren't quite comprehensive or robust enough to model the nuances in the society or government people have in mind. For one, it's either slavery, limited/regulated slavery, xenos slavery, or outright emancipation. Not a great deal to go on with its essentially binary approach. You're either a slave, or free.

Having additional options to represent a more nuanced view of servitude would help tremendously. Adding the option for caste-based or second (or third!)-class citizenship would be the minimum, as would be the ability to set slavery/citizenship status per race. With this, we avoid the incongruous situation of happy slaves; they aren't slaves per se, just somewhat lower down on the social hierarchy. Some species would be content with this state of affairs; others won't. The result I envisage would be an autocratic, authoritarian government that has more productivity than a purely egalitarian democracy (second class citizens have to work harder), but less than an actual slave system. On the flip side, they'll have more stability than a full-on slaving empire (the downtrodden aren't slaves, but they aren't full citizens).
 
Are there any bonuses to species themselves, not just the ethos but the way they look e.g. would an insectoid race gain a hive mind trait that helps gain a influence increase while a mammalian would gain increased a better living state for all (as in a happyness modifier due to fancy design rather than 10% building cost decrease)
I doubt it.

And it better stay that way- portrait choice shouldn't force you to play a certain way.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
OK good I assume that the egalitarian is like a good mix of democracy and capitalism because it both agree on human(or whatever species) citizen right while authoritarianism becomes like autocracy because communism just doesn't work so well in both war and peace and for Madzai I want to say yes that trait is already exist! reworked conformist should work just fine and if you're gonna want that extreme while don't create a mod for fanatic conformist? except f the devs would agree with! I'm waiting for merge federation long ago and that's a thing making federations unrealistic many players said that it would make AI combine into one federation? no! you as the devs have the better way and I know that you just forgot it then I'll remind you and go code it! I think it's not very hard and I'm pretty sure several fan mod makers gonna be able to code this easily as well(including me?) so please don't make we displeased again OK?
I guess there are few requested and it's too hard?
left some pseudo code for you guys! this is what happen when you click to merge
clicked
x=number of members
a=0
if first initiating federation member vote yes
set a=a+1

90 days passed

if a > or = (rounded)x/2

if passed
repeat this by sending request to another federation
if passed again
set status of federation name on all empire of both to new name

another misc to make this more realistic
when you send a request there should be a little delay to make this more dynamic as a time to agree on anything like 3 months you have dynamic that there is 90 days on proposal in voting right? but it isn't dynamic looking when all just cast their vote on the first day

and because I found that you have motto "do or do not there is no try" from master Yoda right? I think it's a good time to have a more advanced agreement or even a revamped federation system

and here's my idea I found it!
trade agreements are 2 with direct transfer that doesn't cost influence
pacts have interesting things like UN and you might now need to pay federation fleet maintenance to make it more realistic right?

xenophobic groups seems to get bored when you can't do these things so instead I've decided that there must be some interesting diplomatic such as if they found unhappy and outside is happier it may turn xenophile and try to escape as refugee opening borders for them might make influence as xenophile but cost a diplomatic relation with them
information quarantine might help but cost science

either free feature or full expansion might include other victory such as science(ascending into 4th dimension) or culture or even as simple as listed above to unite all empires into a federation to get victory

and when this has come why not have 4 more ethics at complete work?
spiritualist- religion it's up for you to decide lol but usually a religion and religious wars and conversion and whatever
materialist- another form called scientific view or a concept that they debates on different theory which one is true and one difference is that they don't hate each other that much
pacifistic empires- can't we live peacefully with these space amoebas? giving them energy and they might grow to protect us feed miners with energy and they might mine for us
forgive the pirates and they might turn good
militaristic empires- more covert options which I'll write that down below and more combat strategies so you won't just stack a whole fleet and make things more interesting


expansion- dealing with construction of more support fires interstellar stations and development of economies and even stations for orbital workers
battlefield- asteroid rich system might damage few corvettes and make thing miss easier while black hole might increase the high momentum weapon damage like torpedo
sub light retreat ok if you just want to reposition or run by enemy to destroy station directly? or just snipe few ships while keeping distance or flanking (and flanking means you got to split fleets!)
coverts to help assassinate leaders or whatever why don't send genetic modified ninjas to shut down their power or incite revolt?


some anomaly you need to find yourself by clicking "search for more anomaly" in science ship option but that isn't normally worth it and it's for player to decide some anomaly (why this nebula don't house any habitable planet? go for a core (but isn't there a better way?) if you devs failed to make realistic and make players waste time? maybe we might have to spawn a lot of high risk event like this instead



is this nebula looks strange? (lack of habitable planet, too much star of one type, etc)
and going through it will first be to choose if it's a good thing or we just trade for small influence

and as always for comments this is not an exhaustive list and is subjected to changes for devs and you're welcome to change any of these and please give me feedback this quote takes long but I prefers quality of the patch over quantity some of these might be improbable but I want at least any of it to make it through and more will help and I don't mind paying a little more to support all of your work was good now keep up your good work! ok? these are pure ideas at the best of my thought and I hope you will like that now have a good day


!!!!!SEE YOU IN THE SPACE!!!!!!
 
  • 3
Reactions:
I hope the egalitarian is a perfect balance between capitalism and democracy but is that right? and if my assumption was wrong then where's my liberal capitalism?
 
I hope the egalitarian is a perfect balance between capitalism and democracy but is that right? and if my assumption was wrong then where's my liberal capitalism?
None of the ethoi in the game imply any sort of economic system. Assuming the governments don't change, egalitarian could range from capitalist to communist and everything in-between. It's all up to you and what type of government you select on how you want to play it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.