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Another good POP category would be the cultural elite or entertainers or whatever. They fulfill few roles in the economy, but have the following effects:
1: They provide entertainment, boosting happiness.
2: They are good at spreading ideology. Think of the left leaning writers who inspired the youth of the fifties and sixties. If America's cultural elite turn red they'll spread that across the nation.
3: Propaganda. If your cultural sector is large enough you'll influence global ideology. Think Hollywood and Coca Cola commercials. This could be countered by being a more closed society.

Well Propaganda is a government thing, sure it might at times use celebrities, writers, artists, and other famous/infamous people as tools in it's production, but at best this can mean events where you can sponsor members of the "elite" to shift their views towards yours, or discredit those that are to far gone in opposing directions, both in your county and abroad(though interfering with foreign celebrities will usually give their government a good chance to use that fact to discredit them and undo any benefit you might have gotten, so make sure your espionage skills is up to the task).
 
A detailed policy and political system Inspired by Democracy 3 mechanics an Vic 2.
A new engine that displays the map as a 3D globe.
A reworked diplomacy system that is at its core diffrent form the PDX-standard.

Though paradox is kind of afraid when it comes to controversial issues don't think they would ever take up issues like Apartheid. And what would their take be on now living dicators and politicians? Many of them are now living to this day. Many of this things i belive is scaring them a bit.
 
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the Israel/Palestine conflict is probably the simplest of the "moral gray areas" they'd need to deal with; you pick a side(either playing directly as one of the two, or one of the surrounding Arab states, or as a world power backing one of the previous options either directly or indirectly), and then try to win..

Well, nothing worse than playing the Nazi and trying to conquer their Lebensraum and then the whole world in Hearts of Iron. :p
 
So I've suggested this as an extension of HOI4 or a HOI4 DLC. HOI4 has many of the base mechanics needed to do this, which can be expanded to replicate a cold war scenario.

I've been told by a few people that HOI4 should just stay a world war 2 sim, which is fine. However in the spirit of paradox grand strategy games, I often like to go off book, and am currently enjoying a multi game playthru starting from CK2. As such i'd love for my decisions in WWII to carry over into this cold war scenario.

Whilst focus trees could potentially help model this, and the world tension mechanic is a fantastic indicator of the need to play a balancing game, once nuclear proliferation becomes a thing at the end of the war, the following developments need to happen in HOI4, to allow this kind of scenario to happen. These suggestions would allow HOI4 to remain as a WWII game, with the option to settle into a cold-war like state via the extension of playable time.

1. Improved economy - atm the game focuses heavily on the war economy with little opportunity to develop the domestic economy. This gives players something to do - should they choose to not involve themselves in the war, or on the flip side, give added reasons for players to join the war, as an opportunity to add national economical gains.

2. Localized tension - I've mentioned before that i'd love to see the world tension be a consolidation of localized tension within an area. This would do two things:

- allow for localized wars to unnescesarilly spread
- allow for advanced commitment to attack / defend - meaning that even though a nation is in an alliance, the alliance wont nescesarilly go to a nations aid unless asked for, and that decision of joining the battle can be based on national interests as well as local/global tension. The higher the tension, the higher chance other nations will join, causing things to spiral out of control
- This is where the new "vassal" system gets fun. The less independent a subjugated nation is, the more its parents status contributes to local tension. For example if britain turns fascist and gets antsy with its neighbors, that "status" may extend to india thus adding to the tension in asia, but not necessarily canada, which enjoys a more independent status than India, thus not nescesarilly affecting its relationship with the US. Obviously this would need to be thought of at a much deeper level, as i'm already getting dizzy with the exceptions, but if done correctly could really be a lot of fun, and potentially encourage or discourage independence as the game progresses simply to manage world tension.

3. character personality - whilst not on the scale of CK2 it would be nice if characters had...character with agenda's and objectives. This would not only affect your gameplay, but also the relationship of other nations with you. Especially if you install puppet governments

4. more "assistance" options. I.e. more things to do with other countries to allow you to wage proxy wars.

5. allow nations to join multiple alliances, but allow alliances to have rules (kind of like pseudo HRE). This allows for the creation of economic blocs & alliances like NATO or the EU with different focuses.

6. Improved espionage & sabotage

All these features wouldnt nescesarilly affect the world war 2 experience (in fact i think it could add to it), but could be used to evolve the late game situation to create plausible cold war scenarios. Furthermore, but not digging to deep into the focus trees, this allows for a more open ended experience. For example instead of setting the world against russia, what if the US had never joined the war, and instead germany was defeated with the aid of russia, who in turn pits europe against the US due to their non-participation in the war creating an all new cold war situation

OR What if Germany is not defeated, and instead the remaining nations peace out, leaving a new central european superpower, that understands, that with the proliferation of nuclear armed world there are no loosers - creating a 3-way cold war between the democratic nations of the US & WWII survivors & their colonies, the Fascist middle europe, and communist eastern europe?

And if you wanna skip world war 2 and go straight into the cold war scenario, Paradox can do that too with...scenarios!
 
Cold war has such potential... Not only you can have interesting games with the Super Powers, but also with the small nations, as many at that time were still trying to hold on to their empires, such as Portugal, France, UK, to name but a few... So each country has its own set of "natural" objectives (keeping their empires intact). Pair this with a United Nations mechanic, and you've got yourself a holy grail of diplomacy. In my opinion.

I was so hyped for EvW... :(
 
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Like EU4- Where you have religion and culture, you should keep that, but very important a new map mode ideology (liberal, communist, socialist, fascist, fundamentalist etc...
 
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I think if paradox just hired the guy who did East Vs West and developed it in house... that would have been a decent game.

EvW was a complete disaster from start to finish. A game is not a mod.

There's some real conceptual issues that need to be overcome to make a Cold War game fun.

Most of all nuclear war (which should last 24-48 hours tops) is going to be hard to make fun in a game that lasts 40-50 years. There is a real problem that nuclear war is both 1) something that shouldn't happen and 2) something the player will have to spend the entire game preparing for.

Just why should the player build nuclear weapons if the aim is not to use them? If the player is forced to build them by a mechanism (e.g., you have to keep parity with the enemy otherwise you lose the game) then in what sense is this fun and not simply microing a meaningless statistic?

CO-IN warfare is something that has, historically, not been fun in Paradox games. HOI4 dealt with this by abstracting it. You can't do this in a Cold War game as CO-IN warfare made up the majority of the fightiing in that period. The solution suggested by the EvW team (basically the HOI3 guerilla warfare model on steroids) would have been attrocious whack-a-mole - and unrealistic given just how rare division-v-division scale combat is in CO-IN wars.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it doesn't look easy.

As for East versus west, there was something something dark side a way to try the unfinished version of.

And thus realise what a pile of garbage it was, and how it would never, ever be completed in any real time-scale and if, by some miracle, it had been, it wouldn't have been any fun to play.
 
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There is a real problem that nuclear war is both 1) something that shouldn't happen and 2) something the player will have to spend the entire game preparing for.

Just why should the player build nuclear weapons if the aim is not to use them? If the player is forced to build them by a mechanism (e.g., you have to keep parity with the enemy otherwise you lose the game) then in what sense is this fun and not simply microing a meaningless statistic?
the goal would be to maintain the balance of Nuclear Deterrence though Mutually Assured Destruction, but there would be the tiny possibility of acquiring First Strike Capability if you pulled far enough ahead of the other side, and had the right technology or sufficient espionage in enemy territory to do so.

but the main thing you'd need to do is maintain your nation's economy, because 99.999% of the time you will not manage to get First Strike Capability, and will simply need to keep equal pace wit the other side until one of you can no longer sustain it and collapse under their own weight.

as for representing the many wars that happened I this era; I'd think that it would be more that the "Third World" nations themselves do the fighting with the First and Second World Powers only providing subsidies or selling arms to existing sides in existing conflicts, giving the player something to do if they decide to play as one of those nations.
 
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EvW was a complete disaster from start to finish. A game is not a mod.

There's some real conceptual issues that need to be overcome to make a Cold War game fun.

Most of all nuclear war (which should last 24-48 hours tops) is going to be hard to make fun in a game that lasts 40-50 years. There is a real problem that nuclear war is both 1) something that shouldn't happen and 2) something the player will have to spend the entire game preparing for.

Just why should the player build nuclear weapons if the aim is not to use them? If the player is forced to build them by a mechanism (e.g., you have to keep parity with the enemy otherwise you lose the game) then in what sense is this fun and not simply microing a meaningless statistic?

CO-IN warfare is something that has, historically, not been fun in Paradox games. HOI4 dealt with this by abstracting it. You can't do this in a Cold War game as CO-IN warfare made up the majority of the fightiing in that period. The solution suggested by the EvW team (basically the HOI3 guerilla warfare model on steroids) would have been attrocious whack-a-mole - and unrealistic given just how rare division-v-division scale combat is in CO-IN wars.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it doesn't look easy.



And thus realise what a pile of garbage it was, and how it would never, ever be completed in any real time-scale and if, by some miracle, it had been, it wouldn't have been any fun to play.

We can work from this though. The pitfall of EvW was the HoI tag on the title; they were making a Hearts of Iron game set in the Cold War, instead of straight up making a Cold War game. So rather than thinking "What can we do to make a good cold war game", they were thinking "What can we change to make Hearts of Iron into a cold war game".

So, rather than start from an existing feature base, we start from a series of goals. I'll do this for nuclear weapons and nuclear policies, as it is the simpler issue (relatively speaking).

Regarding Nuclear War, you identified our gameplay goals; the player must be incentivized to prepare for nuclear war, while being disincentivized to begin nuclear war. This can be done through a high-risk high-reward structure. We can also agree, as you said, that nuclear build-up should not be arbitrary. This can be achieved in X steps; 1st, make nuclear war devastating but not an arbitrary game over. Thus, players want to use it offensively and avoid it defensively. 2nd, teach the AI (and thus the player) MAD, Massive Retaliation, and the diplomacy tools to benefit. 3rd, add First Strike Capability theory, but make it difficult to acquire. 4th, add diplomatic and internal repercussions to even successful safe first strike.

1. Nuclear war should be devastating for the target, destroying military targets and disrupting the economy of the state and thus, the political stability of the state, highly raising dissent or lowering national unity or some other similar mechanic. Being struck by nuclear war should be devastating; not an immediate game-over however. A full nuclear exchange should cripple a nation, but a crippled nation can be saved in time. A limited nuclear exchange should harm a nation but not cripple it. Limited nuclear exchanges will be rare, because of a) MAD, and B) Massive Retaliation. Time to recover, however, is a valuable resource. This should be made clear to the players, that while they can technically survive nuclear strikes, it will in all likelihood drop them an entire tier of operation; from superpower to major power, from major power to minor power, from minor power to weak or failed state, due to the economic and political effects of nuclear strikes. This is your underlying motivation for all nuclear game-play; get the ability to use nuclear force, and get the ability to avoid others using it, because nuclear strikes are deciding factors in war.

2. So, Nuclear strikes are devastating, so all actors a) want to be able to use it, and b) want to be able to avoid it. The next step in having fun and useful Nuclear War, is to give them tools to avoid it. There are two aspects to this; MAD and Massive Retaliation. Technically, Second Strike Capabilities also fall under this section, but we'll talk about those in part 3. MAD is the main factor here, and it teaches the AI to respond to nuclear force with nuclear force, and vice versa, that any nuclear strike it carries out will be responded to with nuclear strikes. The AI will be trained and the players told to avoid being hit with nuclear strikes at (nearly) all costs. Thus, they will avoid striking other major nuclear powers. More minor nuclear powers, like India and Pakistan, may be able to have a nuclear exchange without total destruction, but will still end up crippling each other. Massive Retaliation is an extension of this theory, possibly one that can be toggled on and off. It is, simply, the concept that any force will be met with massive nuclear force. This removes the concept of limited nuclear exchanges between superpowers, so all nuclear exchanges will involve nearly all the capabilities of the involved powers. It also anchors the Cold War more generally in Europe, preventing, while the policy is activated by the superpowers, direct conventional war between major powers. Diplomatic tools allow superpowers to extend Massive Retaliation protection to non-superpowers, perhaps even to all conflicts, preventing the US from bombing Vietnam, and the USSR from bombing Afghanistan. This can also be done by making it hard to divine nuclear trajectories; if an ICBM is spotted, it might not be immediately clear who fired it and at whom, so Massive Retaliation kicks in. Teaching the AI to respond to any strike that MAY be headed towards them as if it IS would fix this.

3. So, we now have tools for the actors to avoid nuclear strikes, but we want the possibility for nuclear war to, in fact, happen, so we must teach the AI to value First Strike Capabilities, the ability to overcome the factors in point 2. If actors can gain the technological abilities to strike without being struck in return, then they must be aware of this, and be more likely to use those capabilities. Likewise, actors must fear others gaining First Strike Capabilities, and develop Second Strike Capabilities. A tech war between first and second strike capabilities and the abilities to circumvent them will dominate the late-game (as no serious first strike capabilities existed in the early cold war). The only truly safe first-strike capability would be defensive in nature, the ability to destroy every incoming missile, and would be the "holy grail" of the game. It would be expensive and difficult to acquire.

4. We don't want the decision to use nuclear force to be a given even if safe First Strike capability is acquired. Even in cases where a nuclear strike would not lead to a response, there should be a system in place to not make it the 100% best option to strike; This can be done by a) giving diplomatic penalties to those who use nuclear weapons, and b) giving internal dissent issues to those who use nuclear weapons, as their own citizens are disgusted by the horrors of nuclear war, even when inflicted on other people.


There. Now the threat of Nuclear War hangs over the entire game. The player wants to use nuclear weapons where they think they can get away with it, because the effects are devastating, but they don't have the ability to absorb nuclear strikes without severe long-term effects. The only way to avoid nuclear strikes is to use MAD, or to use the Massive Retaliation or Nuclear Umbrella policies of other nuclear states. First-Strike Capabilities threaten to up-end this, so players and their enemies race in technology to see who can get a definite advantage. Even relatively safe nuclear strikes will have diplomatic and internal dissent consequences, so that the decision to use nuclear force isn't an obvious one.

This is all done via AI learning recognizing specific situations. It is the job of the mechanics to create the situations to enable the 4 points above. I think that's toally doable.
 
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We can work from this though. The pitfall of EvW was the HoI tag on the title; they were making a Hearts of Iron game set in the Cold War, instead of straight up making a Cold War game...

not just that. HOI was a basis (and an outdated one at that) for only a small portion of a titanic game, and BL Logic had to fill in the gaps for the other 90%. which for a game at 3-4 times the size of any PDS or PDS-derived game was; in hindsight, a pretty insane undertaking. one that put BLL in an iffy situation of trying to make a gigantic megagame when they were just kind of in over their heads due to it's sheer size in terms of content and mechanic requirements.
 
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4. We don't want the decision to use nuclear force to be a given even if safe First Strike capability is acquired. Even in cases where a nuclear strike would not lead to a response, there should be a system in place to not make it the 100% best option to strike; This can be done by a) giving diplomatic penalties to those who use nuclear weapons, and b) giving internal dissent issues to those who use nuclear weapons, as their own citizens are disgusted by the horrors of nuclear war, even when inflicted on other people.
another big detractor to using nuclear weapons is the fact it renders the land it is dropped on useless for quite some time; infrastructure destroyed, natural resources contaminated, POPs are killed or rendered ill and new ones that move in the area or that are downwind/downstream of it will continue to do so. these effects only becoming worse and/or longer lasting as Nuclear technologies advance, with the weakest form of this being applied to Nagasaki, Hiroshima, and the Los Alamos testing site from the start.

this makes Nukes as weapons of conquest(direct or otherwise) or used against close neighbors counter-productive, thus diswaying any smaller nation who somehow gets their hands on nukes while their local enemies have none from using them for a quick offensive victory, and only using them as a final desperation move when losing a conventional war(and this is something that the AI should recognize and either not declare wars or limit their actions to border skirmishes over all out war).

though with all this talk of Nukes and their effects; how should the testing of these weapons be handled? it's a big part of the era after all, there were many treaties between the Western and Eastern powers that revolved around regulation and limitation of how and where nuclear tests could be done.

So we need a reason to make players replicate at least part of this:

I'd suggest that preforming Nuclear test not only should boost nuclear weapon research(and other related technologies, like shelters and clean up responses), but also give small "prestige" boosts to yourself/your alliance and/or "prestige" hits to your rivals/their alliance.

it also let's players toy around with nuclear deployment and enjoy the fancy explosion effects

this in turn can tie into mechanics relating to things like the Space Race and similar events; public displays of big technological advancements or scientific breakthroughs can boost a nation's "prestige" or harm their rival's, and the longer it takes for them to prove they've caught up the less of that gap they can close by doing so.
 
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My favorite thing about the Cold War was the huge space rush, and it's also something not really shown in a lot of cold war games. It wasn't just the race to the moon, there were also the soviet laser pistols, the rods from god, the Orion engine, the moon base plans, etc. It would be pretty cool to have some more in-depth space mechanics, maybe even with an abstracted map of orbit or something. Orbit could give you a variety of advantages (better/faster deployment for nuclear weapons, maybe nuclear defenses, troop deployment, materials research for going to the moon, etc.) It would also be nice to see some of the more esoteric weapons systems developed during this period, such as project EXCALIBUR, caseless guns like the G11, or things like MK Ultra or similar.

Another idea is a military exercises option, where you can perform military exercises with other nations, which improves your military readiness/skill, but also annoys nearby nations or can even make them think you are about to strike. False positives could be a big factor. Do you ignore the alarms, and hope for the best, or do you retaliate, knowing that it could doom the world...
 
Supreme Ruler Cold War is a decent starting point
Aside from everything that was to be in East Vs West... I would like to see:

1) Realistic weapons production and procurement

This means that instead of having every country able to make their own weapons (which is utterly unrealistic and actually complicates the game far too much)... most countries are forced to procure/buy weapons from the obvious actors.
The USA, the USSR, The UK, The French, The Chinese, and some others depending upon the era were literally the providers of the overwhelming majority of weapons (aircraft, tanks, ships, and everything else). It should be this way in the game as well.

A country can become a weapons procurer... but it should take massive research, and investment. Thus it should not be the preferable choice. Instead most countries should look to make arms deals or appeal for military aid as a way to equip armies. As a result these deals and interactions would have a result on relations of countries in the game.

Wasn't China just producing licensed soviet knockoffs for a long time? That would be a cool mechanic too... Being able to license production of certain weapons, but being able to set the total amount produced, among other things.
 
I see four levels of this.

Say you have a tech, MBT 1950. The US researches it as the M48 Patton. The USSR researches it as the T-54. The US sells M48 Pattons to South Korea. The USSR uses upgrades within the tech-level to make the T-55, considered a variant of the T-54. The USSR sells the license of the T-55 to other countries, which make identical tanks. The Chinese steal the technology of the T-55 by reverse engineering it to make their own version of the MBT 1950, the T-59. Later, the USSR does the same thing with MBT 1970, the T-72, licensing it to their sphere. Most of their sphere ends up reverse engineering this tank and using it to skip having to research their own 1950, 1960 and 1970 tanks, jumping straight to 1980 MBT tanks like the Polish PT-91 Twardy, or the Yugoslav M-84.
 
personally i think tanks should use a mix of linear research (m26-m46-m60-m1a1) to directly acquire a next-gen tank at very high cost and time, as well be able as research uniform upgrades to the existing design (m46, m47, m48 pattons)/(t-54 mod. 1947, t-54 mod. 1949, t-54 mod. 1951) (AKA 1950 tank V1, V2, V3) at less time elapsed and much less cost. sort of like that egypt-native version of the T-72 i think.

this way, the major nations can field the top dogs in armored warfare, enhance the otherwise dated (but efficiently produced) designs, and sell those capable-but-not-quite-top-tier-anymore designs that can then sell off as licensed products.
 
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HoI4's military unit upgrade system would work well; you develop new units, and can also skew their stats here and there for specialized porpoises or to counter weakness your enemies have found in it.

a lot, if not all, of HoI4's mechanics can be carried over for the ground and naval combat(though it will be rarely used by the big boys in any major way), though air will need an overhaul due to needing to now be used to conduct and counter peacetime spy missions.
 
There also needs to consider that not all tanks are made to fight all comers. Upgraded T-55s might be nothing versus 1990s new designs, but could equal or even beat 1970s designs like the t-72

well that's mainly due to older tanks being less likely to be packing innovations like spaced and composite armors to augment the Rolled Homogenous Armor. the M1A2 Abrams is like a modern day king tiger tank with it's weight and armor, but it's gun? just another newer variant of the Royal Ordinance L7A3 105mm. NATO-standard since the 50s-60s.

damage done from tanks these days is really all about the ammo used and what counteracts it upon contact. APFSDS, HEAT/HEAT-FS, HESH, any of the APHE variants. and if you're really bold, there's always the odd ATGM.
 
Right. Install enough external armour (slat, reactive, etc), newer ammo, and the modern electronics onto an older tank, and you've gotten at least a serviceable tank against all but 1st-rank militaries. Hell, one company is pitching upgrading the M60A3s even now in 2016, and those tanks were designed over half a century ago!