Stellaris Dev Diary #60: Psionics and The Shroud

[Razor Kotovsky]

That's probably just a function of their aggressive nervous system (it does evoke neural parasite images in my head... but at least it's cute and blue!) and as far as I know has nothing to do with biotics. I'm pretty sure they could reproduce before Protheans came along and started poking them with probes and feeding them eezo candy.

I meant to ask how does it relate to psionics, even if extremely short-ranged?

 

[PalmettoExplorer14]

I was so hoping to see something that resembled Star Wars' the Force, but instead we get something similar to Warhammer 40K's the Warp.

Why does Stellaris have to have so much Lovecraft in it!? No offense to any Lovecraft or Warhammer 40K fans out there, but I'm not a big fan of either (although I think the Tau are cool and I really, really hope that the Tau topple the Imperium one day!). Oh don't get me wrong now, I'm not going to bash anyone for liking them just as I'm sure no one will bash me for not liking them, but I was hoping to see some stuff that resembled Star Wars in Stellaris, namely the Force.

Also, for those who are a bit upset about your species not needing to talk anymore, take a look at the Minbari and the Centauri from Babylon 5: while both races have telepaths, they still talk. Granted, their entire races aren't 100% psionic, it's a good example. Also, just because it says something in a pop up event window, doesn't mean you have to take it literally.

I do hope we get some Force-like events from the Shroud.

Please Wiz, will we get some Force-like events from the Shroud?

 

[TheGrinningMan]

"To give an ethos a unique playstyle" is theoretically reason enough to require spiritualist ethos for psychic ascension perks.

But since I like to have headcanon for everything of this sort... my personal headcanon/theory is that the Shroud has intellect, or something like it. And for its own ineffable reasons, it doesn't like rationality. There's plenty of possible reasons for this. Spiritualists have a deeper understanding of cosmic truths that transcend "mere" rationality and that science alone can never grasp... or maybe spiritualists taste way better and squirm less when their souls are devoured because they're absolute suckers who can be convinced it's a gate to nirvana. Either/or.

So materialists can reach out and contact the Shroud, but they'll just get a busy signal. A materialist with psychic potential will only get headaches -- literally -- from the Shroud until they embrace spiritualism. And while they can certainly try to outwit a being as old as time itself and vaster than the galaxy in order to get a taste of ts power, the materialists are surely smart enough to realize the odds are not in their favor.

 

[Caspoi]

"To give an ethos a unique playstyle" is theoretically reason enough to require spiritualist ethos for psychic ascension perks.

But since I like to have headcanon for everything of this sort... my personal headcanon/theory is that the Shroud has intellect, or something like it. And for its own ineffable reasons, it doesn't like rationality. There's plenty of possible reasons for this. Spiritualists have a deeper understanding of cosmic truths that transcend "mere" rationality and that science alone can never grasp... or maybe spiritualists taste way better and squirm less when their souls are devoured because they're absolute suckers who can be convinced it's a gate to nirvana. Either/or.

So materialists can reach out and contact the Shroud, but they'll just get a busy signal. A materialist with psychic potential will only get headaches -- literally -- from the Shroud until they embrace spiritualism. And while they can certainly try to outwit a being as old as time itself and vaster than the galaxy in order to get a taste of ts power, the materialists are surely smart enough to realize the odds are not in their favor.

Sigh, the difference between spiritualists and materialists is not between rational and irrational behavior or science, it is between those that believe in the idea that there is something beyond our material universe and those that don't. Last time I checked the intelligent trait did not affect the shift between spiritualism and materialism.

 

[TheGrinningMan]

Sigh, the difference between spiritualists and materialists is not between rational and irrational behavior or science, it is between those that believe in the idea that there is something beyond our material universe and those that don't. Last time I checked the intelligent trait did not affect the shift between spiritualism and materialism.

Yes, I know I'm straying for the direct descriptions and even conventional definitions of the materialist ethos. Because taking it at face value is ridiculous; absolute materialism is the only ethos in Stellaris that is based on (in-universe) demonstrably false premises, so one has to assume there's something left over to differentiate Materialist and Spiritualist societies after a dozen tests make the former agree there's something about the latter's new psi drive that indicates a scientific revolution in the wings. From all the other evidence, that difference is whether or not rationality and science can serve as a fundamental guide for how one ought to live and conduct oneself.

 

[aono]

Sigh, the difference between spiritualists and materialists is not between rational and irrational behavior or science, it is between those that believe in the idea that there is something beyond our material universe and those that don't.

Sigh, I'm actually speaking about it here, but by in-game description difference between spiritualist and materialists is between those believe in the idea that a world and existence have meaning.

Materialistic ways of thought: Although it hurts, we must grow up and put aside our outdated notions of morality. There is no 'divine spark' granting special value to a living mind. No object has any intrinsic value apart from what we choose to grant it. Let us embrace the freedom of certitude, and achieve maximum efficiency in all things! / As we reach for the stars, we must put away childish things; gods, spirits and other phantasms of the brain. Reality is cruel and unforgiving, yet we must steel ourselves and secure the survival of our race through the unflinching pursuit of science and technology.
Spiritualistic ways of thought: Our science has proved that Consciousness begets reality. We regard with patience the childlike efforts of those who delude themselves it is the other way around, as they play with their blocks of 'hard matter'. / There are those think it behooves us to remember how tiny we are, how pointless our lives in this vast uncaring universe... What nonsense! The only truth we can ever know is that of our own existence. The universe - in all its apparent glory - is but a dream we all happen to share.

Materialistic personalities: Erudite Explorers value exploration and discovery process above all other things. They will gladly trade for the knowledge they seek, but are not above taking it by force if it proves necessary. / Ruthless Capitalists are willing to go to any length to acquire more wealth and resources for themselves and for their empire. They tend to avoid evenly matched fights, preferring to pounce on the weak and helpless. / Peaceful traders are chiefly concerned with the flow of commerce, and prefer trading to fighting.
Spiritualistic personalities: Spiritual Seekers believe that all life is connected through some higher power that can be understood through its creations. They will seek peaceful cooperation with other empires in the hopes of studying their connection to the divine. / Evangelising Zealots seek to spread their faith across the galaxy, and are not above using military might to force others to accept their beliefs.

 

[TheGrinningMan]

Sigh, I'm actually speaking about it here, but by in-game description difference between spiritualist and materialists is between those believe in the idea that a world and existence have meaning..

Okay, now this point is on much stronger legs. Still, with a good wallop, my aforementioned theory remains viable; the materialist worldview offends the Shroud, so it doesn't work with materialists, preventing them from using their psychic powers. The spiritualist one pleases it, so it works with them. Reasons can range from "spiritualists are right" to "spiritualists are suckers" according to taste.

 

[Peko?]

Sigh, I'm actually speaking about it here, but by in-game description difference between spiritualist and materialists is between those believe in the idea that a world and existence have meaning.

Not really. You could argue that it's the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic meaning but it's not about existence or absence of meaning.

 

[Princess Stabbity]

I meant to ask how does it relate to psionics, even if extremely short-ranged?

It doesn't, at least I don't think so. There's nothing recognisably psychic about it. What they do is link up their nervous system with the partner's, which in theory would allow them to use it as an extension of their own.

Protheans (if we assume Javik's abilities are common to his species) do the same thing just by touching someone which makes it even weirder... but I believe it still has some of superadvanced biology sci-fi explanation.

Taking into consideration all the space monsters and Leviathans floating around in Stellaris, limited data exchange through a form of neural parasitism would be rather tame in terms of what alien biology can do ^^

 

[aono]

Not really. You could argue that it's the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic meaning but it's not about existence or absence of meaning.

Sure, I'm just highlights that's not about existing something beyond "our physical universe" (whatever this beast is).
Materialists can shoot Unbidden without becoming spiritualists. Unbidden just aren't part of Highest Plan.

 

[Belaaron]

So, for the record...can you include an option in the galaxy setup screen to turn all psionics off / remove them completely? Like the way the game can force all empires to use the same FTL?

I really don't want that not sci-fi crap in my games, and there's otherwise no reasonable way to prevent AIs from using it without modding and I can't be bothered to spend time doing that.

 

[Paulus Leto]

I was so hoping to see something that resembled Star Wars' the Force, but instead we get something similar to Warhammer 40K's the Warp.

Why does Stellaris have to have so much Lovecraft in it!? No offense to any Lovecraft or Warhammer 40K fans out there, but I'm not a big fan of either (although I think the Tau are cool and I really, really hope that the Tau topple the Imperium one day!). Oh don't get me wrong now, I'm not going to bash anyone for liking them just as I'm sure no one will bash me for not liking them, but I was hoping to see some stuff that resembled Star Wars in Stellaris, namely the Force.

Also, for those who are a bit upset about your species not needing to talk anymore, take a look at the Minbari and the Centauri from Babylon 5: while both races have telepaths, they still talk. Granted, their entire races aren't 100% psionic, it's a good example. Also, just because it says something in a pop up event window, doesn't mean you have to take it literally.

I do hope we get some Force-like events from the Shroud.

Please Wiz, will we get some Force-like events from the Shroud?

We may yet. Not everything in the Shroud is lovecraftian or WH40K grim dark, going by what was said in the stream. There are multiple entities to deal with and some of them are benign apparently.

So, for the record...can you include an option in the galaxy setup screen to turn all psionics off / remove them completely? Like the way the game can force all empires to use the same FTL?

I really don't want that not sci-fi crap in my games, and there's otherwise no reasonable way to prevent AIs from using it without modding and I can't be bothered to spend time doing that.

If you don't get an option (which is a strong possibility given the need for game balance), you can mod it. With that said, how is psionics not sci-fi? Babylon 5, Star Wars, Dune, and plenty of other sci-fi universes incorporate it.

 

[TempusxX]

So, for the record...can you include an option in the galaxy setup screen to turn all psionics off / remove them completely? Like the way the game can force all empires to use the same FTL?

I really don't want that not sci-fi crap in my games, and there's otherwise no reasonable way to prevent AIs from using it without modding and I can't be bothered to spend time doing that.

Psionics is Scifi you have scifi shows/movies/novels/games like Babylon 5, Star Wars, Dune, Warhammer 40k and many more scifi universes use psionics

 

[Greng]

Apparently fiction is not fictional. LMAO.

I can hardly wait for this update. #MSGA

 

[Sopbucket]

Okay, now this point is on much stronger legs. Still, with a good wallop, my aforementioned theory remains viable; the materialist worldview offends the Shroud, so it doesn't work with materialists, preventing them from using their psychic powers. The spiritualist one pleases it, so it works with them. Reasons can range from "spiritualists are right" to "spiritualists are suckers" according to taste.

If I'm understanding everything correctly, materialists can still be psychic and materialist empires can still get the ascendency traits that alter their populations. You do need to start spiritualist to get the Psionic Theory technology, but you can change your ethos later, and I wouldn't be surprised to see tech stealing added to the game at some point.

So, that means the theories should really be about why materialists can't figure out psychism on their own, apparently once they have it they can develop it further and interact with the Shroud just fine.

Personally, I think it's pretty clear from the ethos descriptions that the Spirtualism/Materialism divide is the same as the divide between Materialism and Idealism in philosophy. It's basically a question of whether consciousness is a byproduct of physical processes, or whether matter (or the perception of it) arises from consciousness. So a Spiritualist empire is essentially one who's technology is based on the latter, kind of like if Hermeticism or Neoplatonism had become the basis of modern science in our timeline. While that doesn't exactly explain why Spiritualists are the only ones who can research psionics, it's at least a proper association I think.

To be honest, I think the game could do a lot more to elaborate on the differences between these two points of view. Too many people seem to be thinking of spiritualists as just religious fanatics, which is a valid interpretation but limited in scope. It'd be interesting to see significantly different research paths for the two sides, but that might be too much work.

 

[Knotz]

Once again I am torn in twain between my love of space magic and my love of space robots.

 

[Luzahn]

Once again I am torn in twain between my love of space magic and my love of space robots.

But space robots are the greatest space magic of all.

 

[Xoatl]

Wut? Evidence? If there were any evidence we would know how to reproduce the phenomenons even without understanding how they work. You would teach children at school how they can do it themselves and then they would grow up obsessed with finding an explanation.Thus prompting research. As it happened for diseases, gravity, the season cycles and so on. That is my complaint with vanilla Stellaris. Science is plenty of unproved theories which are taken for true anyway. But this because they explain and even predict phenomenons that are observed in the real world. And I don't know any specie that reached the stars without a scientific approach to research.



Ah... it's this science vs religion **** again.

It's not a scientists vs mujahideen argument. It's a FTL civ vs bronze age civ argument. The designer choose to make materialist play the dumb role but it could be all other ethos. I dunno. Imagine if Stellaris vanilla had as ultimate tech "sentient computer jump drive" and "sentient hunter killer droids" and those things were putting spiritualists at severe disadvantage. How could spiritualist be so damn stupid to not research those tech themselves? Just observe, make hypothesis, experiment, redo all times you need and then find out how it works. How can a civ with a "I won't even try" attitude reach the stars in the first place? Not to mention all the neutral ethos? What are they for not understanding both AIs and PSI? Galactic empires of disabled semi sentient?

I'm happy that Banks decouples the driver for those peculiarities from technology and puts them in society because it makes sense story wise. I never had an issue with the design principle that different ethos should offer different gameplay experience. It's purely a cosmetic canon consistency thing. For me it breaks the immersion when I find out that I deal with retarded space faring empires. And this regardless of what their ethos fetishes are.

I agree spiritualists should get basic robots if they want. Like materialists should get basic psionics. But Spiritualists would hold off from developing sentient robots or uploading the mind into a robot.

And about evidence, I've posted it in the past. I can't be bothered to do it everytime some random dude asks for it. Go search studies on remote viewing, parapsychology, DMT/psilocybin research, meditation studies, telepathy (Sean Harribance and Ingo Swann). You have google just like I do, so why would I do your work for no pay?

Honestly I've spent YEARS sitting through lectures by Rupert Sheldrake, Graham Hancock, Terence McKenna, Michael Talbot, Rick Strassman, Michael Persinger (I even later took 4 years of BSc (Hons) psych at laurentian to learn directly from this man), sit through amazing Coast2Coast shows and wackjob woo woo crystal huffing guests. I broke my dick scouring the internet and any book I can find on any relevant subject. Then you come here and ask for the keys to the palace like I should just jump on the opportunity to type out a thesis for you. The answers you seek are already in front of you, you just need to have the will to reach out. And I'm certainly less convinced of helping you when you act so stubborn.

 

[SticksNTricks]

guys..... guys. There are lots of stuff that religion and science can't explain. And its the unknown.

Deep in the unknown there is a great cosmic horror in the center of the universe. His name was Azatoth who shows there is no such thing as an absolute answer or truth.

 

[Axe99]

Cheers for the DD Wiz . A nice little twist and a good step development of Stellaris' universe (as opposed to mechanics) 'identity'. As long as it's not too scissor-paper-rock like, unique mechanics for ethics also sound cool, and the idea that spiritualists would be the only ones able to connect with the shroud could be made to hold water. Looking forward to hearing what the other ethics have going for them .