Stellaris Dev Diary #63: Synthetic and Biological Ascension

[Arkangilos]

Why? Biological path is not about adaptability, its about ascention, like all another paths too. Adaptable, strong, clever, delicious (lol), and long lived. But why long lived, not immortal? Its seems illogical, because biology (gerontology) is shortest (just my opinion) way to immortality in real life. Give immortality to 2 of 3 paths and dont give it to biological path its fictitious limitation.

And this is not only one problem of the biological path. Biological path is really "blandness". The only one interesting feature is replaceable positive traits.

As a species they have ascended to a state where they can adapt to meet every need with almost no real effort.

 

[Andrés Camilo]

Cool!

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Why? Biological path is not about adaptability, its about ascention, like all another paths too.

"Ascension" is a rather vague term.

All it really seems to mean in the case of Stellaris is "ascending" to a new level of being- Synthetics give up biology entirely in favour of eternal existence as plastic and steel, Psionics embrace psychic potential and open their minds to higher realities... and Organics tame the forces of evolution so as to be able to fit themselves to any circumstance or need.

The whole point of increased Trait points, shorter modification times, and finer control over Trait selection is to let you micro-manage your populace and specialize and, well, adapt them as needed.

Furthermore, immortality is already asymmetrically distrubuted- ALL Synths are immortal, but only your main Ruler is immortal for Psionics. No reason not to have Biology path-followers eschew immortality entirely.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Don't expect an answer, certainly not 19 pages in but what I'm wondering about are the following two mechanics.

Robotic Ascension and how it affects existing Synthetic populations?
Robotic Ascension and how it affects the AI rights policies?

In regards to the first question it looks like the game ends up modifying the file for your existing home species, and then gives you the opportunity to edit the name. So the existing Synthetic population, who in this scenario sprouted about from droids that I have transferred to a lifeless tomb world to force to work as slave miners, should remain as an alien species of "Synthetics" while my glorious Sproutlings have become the terrible "Iron Onions?"

Can you ascend a second species within your borders and if so, would they also be considered an alien species or would the act of ascension turn them into the existing ascended species?

If this does happen as a default, will there be a way to 'integrate' the different Synthetic species into your core species, just in case I ever decide to play a borg style run?

 

[Real Strategist]

Besides beating aliens in galactic wars to enslave or eliminate them, you can now eat them and genetically modify them to be more nutricious?

What a sick idea... I LOVE IT! XD

Thanks god that this is just a game. If we ever meet aliens which are as good neighbors as the ones we got in Stellaris we are screwed.

 

[lightvsdarkness]

Biological path seems weakest of 3 to me. Not cool.

 

[Sibericus]

Could we please get the ability to cyberform planets with the synthetic ascension path?

 

[Kodama_Tetsuya]

"Ascension" is a rather vague term.
Furthermore, immortality is already asymmetrically distrubuted- ALL Synths are immortal, but only your main Ruler is immortal for Psionics. No reason not to have Biology path-followers eschew immortality entirely.

Immortality of 3 path IMO: all - one - certain group, certain one and certain group have totally different meaning I think. And well... actually we have two mechanic have only immortal leader which may be redundant in your opinion: hive minds also have immortal leader.
And if we take in refusing taking path but use the slot for other usage the it would all - one - certain group - none, I guess this will be better than all - one - none - none.
And well...in certain degree WE are taking bio-path so I hope there would be more interesting events maybe base on what we debating in real world

 

[Anaris]

"Ascension" is a rather vague term.

All it really seems to mean in the case of Stellaris is "ascending" to a new level of being- Synthetics give up biology entirely in favour of eternal existence as plastic and steel, Psionics embrace psychic potential and open their minds to higher realities... and Organics tame the forces of evolution so as to be able to fit themselves to any circumstance or need.

We know, "what" ascention does, but it is only your opinion "for what". So i must correct you:
Synthetics give up biology entirely, Psionics embrace psychic potential, and Organics tame the forces of evolution.
We know, biology path improve the lifetime, but only by 30 years. So why only 30? This limitation looks illogical. And i dont see any reason for this unrealistic limitation.

The whole point of increased Trait points, shorter modification times, and finer control over Trait selection is to let you micro-manage your populace and specialize and, well, adapt them as needed.

Yes, and it does not contradict the idea that immortality can be achieved by biological path.

Furthermore, immortality is already asymmetrically distrubuted- ALL Synths are immortal, but only your main Ruler is immortal for Psionics. No reason not to have Biology path-followers eschew immortality entirely.

There is a reason, and it is the same as that in the path of cybernetics or spiritualism. Eschew immortality look more realistic for spiritualist, not for biologist. And i never speak about equal immortality for all 3 paths. On the contrary, I emphasized the difference between them. Immortality for biological path may be a huge (5-6 maybe) trait, and use it would be beneficial only for "master race" of leaders (all leaders, not only for glorious psy-emperor), or somewhat like that.

So i understand what are you want to say. But i speak not about profit or diversity of playstyles. I just saying that tame the forces of evolution and don't achieve the immortality looks unrealistic and illogical. And i repeat, it is only one problem of biological path.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

We know, "what" ascention does, but it is only your opinion "for what". So i must correct you:
Synthetics give up biology entirely, Psionics embrace psychic potential, and Organics tame the forces of evolution.

How are you correcting me by rehashing exactly what I've already said?

We know, biology path improve the lifetime, but only by 30 years. So why only 30? This limitation looks illogical. And i dont see any reason for this unrealistic limitation.

Where are you getting that number from?

Yes, and it does not contradict the idea that immortality can be achieved by biological path

I'm in no way denying that genetic engineering holds the possibility for biological immortality IRL- my argument is that thematically and mechanically, I can see good reasons not to give the Biological Ascension Perk an "immortality" function as part of it.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

We know, biology path improve the lifetime, but only by 30 years. So why only 30? This limitation looks illogical. And i dont see any reason for this unrealistic limitation.

Because game balance? Because the game has a repeatable tech that already represents the struggle to get more years out of our biological bodies via a constant need to keep pushing the boundaries of biological knowledge? Because people growing older and dying isn't 'unrealistic' at all, how can it be, it's something that really happens, for real, every day, to everybody.

Hell, growing old and dying is the most realistic and universal thing represented in game.

 

[Derp]

Wow, some people are really hung up on this immortality thing. Is it really that big of a deal that you can't have everything you want in one package?

 

[Anaris]

How are you correcting me by rehashing exactly what I've already said?

I cut this parts:

in favour of eternal existence as plastic and steel

open their minds to higher realities...

so as to be able to fit themselves to any circumstance or need

_

Where are you getting that number from?

Robust: Upgrades from Extremely Adaptable, adds +30% habitability and an extra +30 years of lifespan.

I'm in no way denying that genetic engineering holds the possibility for biological immortality IRL- my argument is that thematically and mechanically, I can see good reasons not to give the Biological Ascension Perk an "immortality" function as part of it.

"Good reason" can be found for all 3 paths.

Because game balance?

In "game balance" biological path seems most weak path.

Because the game has a repeatable tech that already represents the struggle to get more years out of our biological bodies via a constant need to keep pushing the boundaries of biological knowledge?

In game no one can take all techs. Materialist cant take psy tech without psy scientist, xenophobes cant take Visitor Center, individualists cant take repeatable tech that improve slaves etc. So why repeatable tech that improve lifespan cant be hided for empires with biological path?

Because people growing older and dying isn't 'unrealistic' at all, how can it be, it's something that really happens, for real, every day, to everybody.

Hell, growing old and dying is the most real and universal thing represented in game.

...
...
...
...so... we now speaking about future and biological path to ascention, right?

 

[Dmitrius]

@Wiz : I was kind of dismayed to see the synthetic ascension line's perks ending in the exact same art that synths use. Here are the various options that could happen there, prioritized by order of awesomeness, and therefore inversely prioritized by ease of implementation...

1. Each species portrait has an alternate synthetic version that activates when you ascend, so bird people have robots that look like robot bird people.
2. When you ascend, you get a choice of a few different synthetic "models" to use for your species.
3. (Idea from indalecio248 further down in the thread...) Your people have all uploaded their brains to a computer. So your species still looks it once did, its just now transparent, like a hologram.
4. When you ascend, you get a static model, but it is different than the regular robotic synthetics. You are an ascended synthetic.
5. When you ascend, you look exactly like a regular robotic synthetic.

Absolutely, well done that man. Please Wiz, I love materialist runs and this would add a massive level of immersion for me (and apparently other fans). I realise we're getting a lot of bang for our bucks with this colossal expansion so even if this was a separate content pack for die hard materialists I'd love to see it.

 

[Dmitrius]

Events: People resisting the ascension?
Factions?

Could we have factions, once you get to a certain tech level, which would push you to take the cyber path or the biological one? maybe even start a civil war about the future of the species? Or some events leading up to those decision.

Agreed, this seems like a missed opportunity, especially given one of the major plot points of Banks excellent novel Hydrogen Sonata.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I cut this parts:

And? My post's intent remains the same, and all you did was rehash exactly what I said. That you disagree with the flavour of my statement is irrelevant.

"Good reason" can be found for all 3 paths.

And good reason not to give Biological Ascension can also be found. It's a matter of opinion, and my opinion is firmly that thematically and mechanically differentiating things by having a path that lacks immortality is fine.

In "game balance" biological path seems most weak path.

In your opinion. It looks fine to me.

In game no one can take all techs. Materialist cant take psy tech without psy scientist, xenophobes cant take Visitor Center, individualists cant take repeatable tech that improve slaves etc. So why repeatable tech that improve lifespan cant be hided for empires with biological path?

Gating the "+10 Year Leader Lifespan" repeatable tech behind the Biological Ascension is quite a different suggestion from "let Biological Ascension takers have immortality too!"

 

[SevenSerpents]

Agreed, this seems like a missed opportunity, especially given one of the major plot points of Banks excellent novel Hydrogen Sonata.

Wiz confirmed on twitter that Factions will try and resist ascension.

 

[Anaris]

And? My post's intent remains the same, and all you did was rehash exactly what I said. That you disagree with the flavour of my statement is irrelevant.

...do you read my posts?

We know, "what" ascention does, but it is only your opinion "for what".

_

And good reason not to give Biological Ascension can also be found. It's a matter of opinion, and my opinion is firmly that thematically and mechanically differentiating things by having a path that lacks immortality is fine.

We already talking about that: there is no reason because its unrealistic and illogical.

In your opinion. It looks fine to me.

Not opinion, just math.

Gating the "+10 Year Leader Lifespan" repeatable tech behind the Biological Ascension is quite a different suggestion from "let Biological Ascension takers have immortality too!"

...you realy don't read my posts. Please, read what are you comment. What i say, whom i say and why i say. Becose there is no reason to talking if you don't understand me.

 

[TheShah]

id happily pay $5-7 for a cyborg/synth graphics pack

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Not opinion, just math.

That you assume you can accurately do the math on how powerful asymmetrical bonuses are in relation to each other while having an incomplete picture of those bonuses and how they interact with all the other new mechanics you don't have a complete picture of is more than enough evidence for me that debating with you is pointless.