Stellaris Dev Diary #63: Synthetic and Biological Ascension

[BlackUmbrellas]

I don' really see the point in adding negative traits. I mean, if you want to hurt a particular species in your empire you can just enslave or purge them, adding negative traits would just decrease their resource output and giving them negative traits is bound to give you just as much political backlash as if you enslaved or purged them. Unless you can somehow add negative traits to a species then send it to an enemy empire, which you can't do, then there really is no point.

Depending on the negative Trait, it's a free bonus Trait point.

 

[AvalancheZ250]

Depending on the negative Trait, it's a free bonus Trait point.

Fair enough. I didn't think of that

That said, it should still incur some political or happiness backlash

 

[Stoßtrupp Gold]

WHY SHOULD ANYONE USE THIS?

What the Sheriff said and simply efficiency.

Your math is flawed- you're trying to mod a whole species to be as close to Synths as possible when you should be looking at modding planets and even particular species on planets to be really good at one or maybe two things.

Please explain.
If i have a "science" planet full of labs, of course i want to be those people be erudites.
And on the other "mineral" planet full of mines, i want them to be industrious.
Ok the first one get the erudite trait and the other the industrious trait.
But why should i do that when i can have synth on both planets?
That just looks to me like unnecessary micromanagement.

 

[Name already in use]

You already can build Synths and colonize everything with them, without the Ascension Perks... The Xenophobia modifier for robots was already patched out afaik. You can already appoint them as Leaders if you allow the policy that is already ingame... If your pops are Materialist they won't even suffer a happiness malus. The amount of synths in the leader pool is also only depends of your population percentage. There might be the occasional organic but you do not need to choose him.

And If you want to go full synth, then you can always stop producing food and replace all starved pops with synths...(since you won't be able to purge your main species anymore)

There is nothing new except immortal Leaders and naming your Synths... thats all.... I would only take it in a full synth run out of "OCD" reasons (Empire "main" species with 0 pops).

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

You already can build Synths and colonize everything with them, without the Ascension Perks... The Xenophobia modifier for robots was already patched out afaik. You can already appoint them as Leaders if you allow the policy that is already ingame... If your pops are Materialist they won't even suffer a happiness malus. The amount of synths in the leader pool is also only depends of your population percentage. There might be the occasional organic but you do not need to choose him.

And If you want to go full synth, then you can always stop producing food and replace all starved pops with synths...(since you won't be able to purge your main species anymore)

There is nothing new except immortal Leaders and naming your Synths... thats all.... I would only take it in a full synth run out of "OCD" reasons (Empire "main" species with 0 pops).

Starvation doesn't kill POPs.

 

[Riftwalker]

Please explain.
If i have a "science" planet full of labs, of course i want to be those people be erudites.
And on the other "mineral" planet full of mines, i want them to be industrious.
Ok the first one get the erudite trait and the other the industrious trait.
But why should i do that when i can have synth on both planets?
That just looks to me like unnecessary micromanagement.

for minerals you can make them Industrious, Very strong and enslave them...

when colonizing you can use super breeders and then change them to their correct type of worker.

you can make gene warriors out of super fighter species.

you can also make them communal giving that slight happiness bonus over removing their emotions

you can focus specific planets to specific research trees and give them the special trait for researching that specific area of science.

meanwhile this could all be some lesser species and your primary species could all have talented and quick learners to make all your leaders great. every planet that will have some slaves but not all , the unenslaved can be given decadent for an extra point.

there's just so much you can do...

 

[Name already in use]

What the Sheriff said and simply efficiency.

At the Point you get access to the Ascension you will have already passed the point where this efficiency bonus matters... Paradoxically: The more you rely on robots, the more useless this path becomes... because why would you sacrifice Perks that made your empire more efficient (Megastructures/Galactic Ambitions/One Vision) for a minor increase in output in a minority of your population? There are no new mechanics... and these old Mechanics can also be used by anyone who does NOT go for Synthetic Ascension.

Starvation doesn't kill POPs.

Hmm... then they migrated away... I always thought they could, if they are starved hard enough.
Still, you can make them a minority... just go full mechanist... or donate their home planet to a fanatial purifier... or just live with those 20ish organics that gave life to your synthetic race, its far more efficient than losing other boni because of them.... he who purges usually does not care for efficiency... he who brainwashes does (Fanatic Spiritualist+ Collectivist Slaver Mega Corporation)

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

And if you are a prisoner of the illusion of immutability and invincibility of aging - please read at least the popular scientific literature on this topic. I recommend Aubrey de Grey.

Yeah.... a brief look at his work indicates I lack the necessary post doctorate degree to comment on his theories. Having said that, I'm also not finding any practical experiments that prove his theories and without empirical data he has nothing. I've also found a report published by 28 leaders in the biomedical field indicating his approaches will have no practical effects, and this report was agreed with by his own foundation.

Reality is harsh, try again when either Aubrey de Grey has managed to keep a may fly alive for more than a day, a lab rat alive for a decade, or when you can hand pick an expert on biological immortality that has managed to actually halt or even slow the process of aging. Until then, biological mortality is still the most realistic approach.

Are you trying to say that the biological path may be better if you divide society into 4-5 specialized species, but i'm not sure. Because +1 leader level is worse than immortality with non-replaceable +5 leader level, achieving comparable to synthetic indicators of adaptability achievable price more serious efforts, including the construction of specialized buildings on each planet, and the use of expensive trait on the adaptability instead useful for production. The only indisputable advantage of the biological path is population growth rate.

You are incorrect for the following 2 reasons. Leaders also die from random events, so nobody lives forever, as your natural lifespan increases, the likelihood that a random event catches you increases. You reach a point where your biological leader is only slight more likely to die of old age than a synthetic. In such a scenario you need to hire a replacement leader. The Erudite hires him at level 2 or level 3 depending on government civics. The Synthetic hires him at level 1 or level 2.

Leaders have special abilities that make them more or less desirable as the game progresses. Your increased chance to find an anomaly may be great at the beginning but at some point you need your scientist to survey faster or learn faster. Your naval commander being sturdy may have been great at first, but now you really need to hit and run and you'd like a jester. Your agrarian governor was fine ruling over a planet of livestock when you conquered them, but now you really need that leadership spot to run a sector and agrarian is suddenly a wasted talent. Industrial specialization may be great at first, but at some point you're going to want materials or voidcraft. You get the idea.

While you're looking to handpick your leader from a pool based on the perfect talent, be happy to know that a erudite recruit has 1 level over the synth, and is almost as likely to die in a horrific lab fire.

achieving comparable to synthetic indicators of adaptability achievable price more serious efforts, including the construction of specialized buildings on each planet, and the use of expensive trait on the adaptability instead useful for production. The only indisputable advantage of the biological path is population growth rate.

Actually, had you paid attention you'd see you only need specialty buildings on tomb worlds if you haven't unlocked the technology that increases their habitability and completely off climate planets. But you don't settle a tomb until you have the tech that makes it viable and you don't settle an off climate planet, you put your significantly reduced cost for gene modifying to work and make your people climate compatible. And you'd see I flat out said you shouldn't bother with the habitability trait, it's an unnecessary waste of trait points and effort.

But they also have an indisputable advantage in terms of mineral production. Unless you think 30% is somehow disputably smaller than 20%

So to recap your rebuttal. In leadership and research it's a wash, the biological ascension gets a bit more versatility and a faster progression of new leaders to rank 5, but synthetics get leaders who stay at rank five on average longer. In habitability there is a slight edge to synthetics as they do not need to jump through the same hoops to plant their flags on new worlds. In mineral production the bonus goes to Organics as their proles get a 30% bonus, where as synthetics get only 20%. In population growth the advantage goes to organics. In energy development it's advantage synthetics, the 2 farmers per 20 population that Synths save on not eating can go into energy production and they easily become somewhere between 20 and 24 energy. Subtract the 20 that are eaten by synths and that's either break even or a 4 energy profit for every 20 population.

Now tell me, between leader levels, planet colonization availability, mineral production, population growth, and late game energy production, which has the greatest impact on the game? Here, I'll ask again but bold the answer.

Now tell me, between leader levels, planet colonization availability, mineral production, population growth, and late game energy production, which has the greatest impact on the game? That's right, mineral production and population growth. You see, mineral production in the early stages of the game fuels all FOUR of the X's in this 4X title and population growth creates the production units that builds on that expansion.

You go on to repeat the name of Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, the other MIpT, adjunct professor Aubrey de Grey, as if knowing about a scientist with unproven theories makes you an expert on life extension. A bit of a heads up there, all it proves is that you've read popular fiction written 10 years ago, or more likely watched a Ted Talk 6 months ago.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

At the Point you get access to the Ascension you will have already passed the point where this efficiency bonus matters... Paradoxically: The more you rely on robots, the more useless this path becomes... because why would you sacrifice Perks that made your empire more efficient (Megastructures/Galactic Ambitions/One Vision) for a minor increase in output in a minority of your population? There are no new mechanics... and these old Mechanics can also be used by anyone who does NOT go for Synthetic Ascension.

Hmmm, interesting.

Maybe. I guess if you don't expand very fast at the opening of the game or are going for a tall play, your core race may have a very small population. But why wouldn't you expand and grow your core population as much as possible, like a standard play through, until you can start the Synthetic Ascension? Particularly given that the first stage of Synthetic Ascension is a +40% habitability modifier. That basically opens up every world in the galaxy for your expansion, for the early and mid stages of the game you can be having the best of both worlds by growing cybernetic populations while also building droids.

 

[Stoßtrupp Gold]

There is nothing new except immortal Leaders and naming your Synths... thats all.... I would only take it in a full synth run out of "OCD" reasons (Empire "main" species with 0 pops).

Now i understand what you mean. So certain fix would be to make the synth tech only available if one has chosen "the Flesh is weak".
Either way, by the time i am able to choose the synth ascension i guess i would have around 200 non-synth pops, so changing them instantly to synths would be very nice.

for minerals you can make them Industrious, Very strong and enslave them...

I need to know more about the civics and how good "proles" is. Till know i would choose the syncretic evolution to have a slave race of proles which can i give industrious for 50% (=30+15+5).

you can make gene warriors out of super fighter species.

Granted they are the best ground units.

when colonizing you can use super breeders and then change them to their correct type of worker.

Not sure if it´s worth it, micro-managing and stopping the society research (even if it is only for a month), when you can make migration to that planet attractive or resettle them there.

you can also make them communal giving that slight happiness bonus over removing their emotions

If gene points are left to choose it. But communal is always a nice trait to have regardless what task they have to do (as long as they are no slaves.)
That said synths seem to still have their emotions, as they also have the happiness rating.

you can focus specific planets to specific research trees and give them the special trait for researching that specific area of science.
meanwhile this could all be some lesser species and your primary species could all have talented and quick learners to make all your leaders great. every planet that will have some slaves but not all , the unenslaved can be given decadent for an extra point.

All in all seems to me that your way includes more micromanaging than what i might find still comfortable.

 

[Name already in use]

Hmmm, interesting.

Maybe. I guess if you don't expand very fast at the opening of the game or are going for a tall play, your core race may have a very small population. But why wouldn't you expand and grow your core population as much as possible, like a standard play through, until you can start the Synthetic Ascension? Particularly given that the first stage of Synthetic Ascension is a +40% habitability modifier. That basically opens up every world in the galaxy for your expansion, for the early and mid stages of the game you can be having the best of both worlds by growing cybernetic populations while also building droids.

Why would you? because you built the initial 5 planets and conquered the rest from surrounding empires until I am so big that noone wants to attack. I like to play in not completely empty galaxies so there is a lot of friction from the beginning. And so you can already colonize everything with different species and droids.Converting the Core populations might have an Impact, but its still a minority in the Empire... But that is not the point I want to bring across....

The synthetic paths final perk does add nothing new... the first one can also effectively achieved with gene modding. All this can be achieved without synthetic Ascension Perks.

Now i understand what you mean. So certain fix would be to make the synth tech only available if one has chosen "the Flesh is weak".
Either way, by the time i am able to choose the synth ascension i guess i would have around 200 non-synth pops, so changing them instantly to synths would be very nice.

You could fix it that way, Yes... You could also add in a special Ascension Perk for militarists that gives them special ship sizes... Just give them regular Battleships and remove them for all other empires that did not take the Perk.... Or make it so the erk instantly Converts all your cruisers to Battleships.... Why would you need that when you could build them in the first place? yeah, thats exactly the problem.

They are making the same stuff with Psionics, but they had at least the decency to add new tech, traits and mechanics. These are not there for Synthetic Ascension

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

The Synthetic Ascension perk is just a fully-supported way of doing what players were already doing- and that's fine IMO. Other mechanic changes in 1.5 have made turning your empire into an all-Synth one impossible, so they slotted it in here (with a few new hinted-at goodies and probably an immunity to being wiped out by the AI Rebellion radicalization mechanic).

 

[Name already in use]

The Synthetic Ascension perk is just a fully-supported way of doing what players were already doing- and that's fine IMO. Other mechanic changes in 1.5 have made turning your empire into an all-Synth one impossible, so they slotted it in here (with a few new hinted-at goodies and probably an immunity to being wiped out by the AI Rebellion radicalization mechanic).

Well, this is not part of any Free Patch, we will have to pay for it... I personally want to get equivalent content for the money I will spend.
If it were just to balance out the abillity to go full synth that we will lose because of the Purge Balance, they could have made it part of the Free Patch
(Yes, I will buy it, because of all the other content it is still worth it.)

I never saw any hint for that, and If there were, why is it not in the diary?... Not even a hint thereof.
I only believe what I read in DDs and see in Screenshots/Streams.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I never saw any hint for that, and If there were, why is it not in the diary?... Not even a hint thereof.
I only believe what I read in DDs and see in Screenshots/Streams.

You're fair to make that choice. I've heard a few people bring up one of the other devs on Twitter mentioning that Wiz hadn't talked about some of the changes to Synths- and immunity to AI Rebellion radicalization is only logical (because otherwise it would be an immediate game-over for your civilization).

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Why would you?

Why would you expand with your core population to any uninhabitable worlds in your reach, and then supplement their growth by building robots and droids? Because bigger is better in this game. Tall has its place, but for raw power and effectiveness, this game rewards expansion. Now you go on to present some inferior options but you're a clever guy so while you recognize they are inferior, you believe the extent to which they are inferior will likely be bridged and surpassed by whatever ascension perk you take in place of Synthetic Ascension. I'll acknowledge you might be right, I think you're probably wrong, but you might be right. So I'll be focusing on the full extent of the cybernetic colonization advantage in comparison to the two other options you presented.

Growing a biological population simultaneously with a droid population is the fastest way to turn a resource sucking frontier colony into a productive hub in your empire. I actually argued that Organic Ascension has the best population growth but I realize now that's only true after you have fully ascended into Synthetics. While Biological Ascension play population growth is no doubt cheaper, and compared to straight droid progression, faster. But combined droid and biological population growth lets you spend early and hard to get big very quickly. And once you're big, you have the resources to keep spending. Synthetic Ascension play is going to be grueling but powerful, and it's going to reward people who take chances for big rewards because when it works, you'll get wide fast adn build up tall from it.

But you're thinking, "So what, I can do that with the scared Fungoloids I conquered on that desert planet."

You can, and you probably should, up until you get the first tier of Synthetic Ascension. Afterwards though colonizing with your own people on every world, regardless of climate, is significantly better. Your own people will be happier and unhappy populations increase the Unity cost of traditions and thus ascension perks. Traditions are powerful, ascension perks are powerful, you want them almost as much as you want that planet colonized. Plus, since you know you are on the Synthetic Ascension perk path, you know every opportunity one of your own populations has to grow is a future Synthetic population with a +20% resource production across the board. The cost of a colony ship isn't changed when you build it on an alien space port, and if you have 5 worlds of your own population already, you probably have 5 space ports.

So, basically I'm gambling the unity development rewards and then the bonus from having more of your people turn into Synthetics will outweigh the benefits that you can get from your two last Ascension Perk choices. And you want to know why I think I'm right? Because Synthetic Ascension is a paid feature, and I've never seen Paradox, for better or worse, make a paid feature that was under powered.

 

[Name already in use]

Because Synthetic Ascension is a paid feature, and I've never seen Paradox, for better or worse, make a paid feature that was under powered.

The Problem is: If there were new mechanics for synths they would have shown them... if not, why not? They showed us the Shroud without spoiling too much.

With going Full Synth you will lose your "organic" growth. If not? Why isn't in the Dev Diary.

It is not a question if this is balanced... synths are awesome.... But it is nothing new... If there were events... why isn't it in the Dev Diary?

I could Super Engineer Organics AND Build Synths simultaneously... I would even get the gene Warriors and no downside. (Old population will be reengineered)

That is the problem... there is no new mechanic, no new tech, no new anything.
Its not a matter of balance, since Psi will be overpowered as always, it is a question why there is nothing... And if there is:Why is it not in the Dev Diary?

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

The Problem is: If there were new mechanics for synths they would have shown them... if not, why not? They showed us the Shroud without spoiling too much.

With going Full Synth you will lose your "organic" growth. If not? Why isn't in the Dev Diary.

It is not a question if this is balanced... synths are awesome.... But it is nothing new... If there were events... why isn't it in the Dev Diary?

I could Super Engineer Organics AND Build Synths simultaneously... I would even get the gene Warriors and no downside. (Old population will be reengineered)

That is the problem... there is no new mechanic, no new tech, no new anything.
Its not a matter of balance, since Psi will be overpowered as always, it is a question why there is nothing... And if there is:Why is it not in the Dev Diary?

If things don't show up in the Dev Diaries, the only thing that means for sure is that they didn't want to show them off in the Dev Diaries.

 

[Name already in use]

If things don't show up in the Dev Diaries, the only thing that means for sure is that they didn't want to show them off in the Dev Diaries.

Exactly... either they didn't want to show or there is nothing to show.

If they are not done yet, why rush out a Dev Diary about it and not make a DD about something else... or say, that they are not ready yet and they will show us in a week or two?
If they don't want to spoil us why is ther not even a mention of it? With the shroud they had no such problem.

Ergo the only logical solution I see is, that there is nothing more to it than we saw.

Or this DD was utter garbage because Wiz wanted to go to the San Francisco GDC and wrote it in advance... but why not simply tell us we will have to wait for a week?
Or have someone add in the stuff that got added this week?

Ergo I think this Is really all we can expect... no new mechanics, no new tech and no new events.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Exactly... either they didn't want to show or there is nothing to show.

If they are not done yet, why rush out a Dev Diary about it and not make a DD about something else... or say, that they are not ready yet and they will show us in a week or two?
If they don't want to spoil us why is ther not even a mention of it? With the shroud they had no such problem.

Ergo the only logical solution I see is, that there is nothing more to it than we saw.

Or this DD was utter garbage because Wiz wanted to go to the San Francisco GDC and wrote it in advance... but why not simply tell us we will have to wait for a week?
Or have someone add in the stuff that got added this week?

Ergo I think this Is really all we can expect... no new mechanics, no new tech and no new events.

Why do you think they'll show us at all? Why do you assume the options are that they "rushed" the Diary OR they have nothing to show us at all?

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Actually, I'm sorta on the side of Name already in use regarding their show don't tell policy. The Dev Diaries exist to generate excitement. They want us to get excited enough to buy an expansion, and they want to get us excited enough to tell people we know, who maybe tried the game and stopped, or maybe who don't follow the forums, about the expansion. New mechanics and new techs on robots would add excitement.

Now, for my part, I'm excited enough being able to turn my population into Synthetics. People have been asking about playing a fully synthetic race since the game launched. Within the first 2 weeks there was a post up from a player who had manage to create an empire, and then 'convert' all of her people to Synthetics. The first mod I downloaded allowed me to start as a race of Robots that gradually improved with each 'robot' tech. So, between Synthetic Ascension and Mechanist I'm plenty excited. I think these changes are going to create enough of a new dynamic, and introduce new play options within the greater heading of 'robot empires' that it'll be worth it and I'm already rethinking my existing strategies based on the understanding that any organic population I create will eventually be a synthetic.