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Another WW2 game without Soviet Union

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Everyone talks about elites (understandably) but I am wondering what typical infantry division will be like. For example US 29th inf div. How will the regular troops be interesting? Will they have more units available? Will they have lower pricing? Or maybe they will get things like 105mm arty quickly? Or maybe they will get elite inf such as Ranger battalion attachments or lots of atguns or they might be jack of all trades...
 
Solty said:
Everyone talks about elites (understandably) but I am wondering what typical infantry division will be like. For example US 29th inf div. How will the regular troops be interesting? Will they have more units available? Will they have lower pricing? Or maybe they will get things like 105mm arty quickly? Or maybe they will get elite inf such as Ranger battalion attachments or lots of atguns or they might be jack of all trades...
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Maybe, maybe ... :)
 
77Hawk77 said:
There is no evidence of SS units were ever better equipped. There was one time when more of the Heavy tank units were SS, during the bulge. But that's about it, it's just a silly myth perpetuated by people who want make them seem like elite units rather than ideological silly people in uniforms.

Go to panzerworld and read the article about SS equipment quality.
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That's a myth based on a misreading of Zetterling's conclusions in Normandy 1944. SS units in France were not necessarily better equipped than their Heer counterparts. What Zetterling didn't make more clear was that France was a rest and refit area so everyone was making do with incomplete TO&Es.

In 1943 in the Eastern Front, during the heydey of SS effectiveness, they were among the first to be issued Tiger tanks that were integrated into their Divisions and they had priority with replacements. The situation in France 1944 however was very different. The SS were much less "elite" in pretty much all ways by 1944, even in the "best" Divisions. 12th SS in particular has a "fierce" reputation but the interview I've read of an actual tank gunner in the Division revealed the unit had way more scared kids than fierce fighters for the Reich.
 
77Hawk77 said:
In a sense, Tank Divisions in world war 2 were all elite, as they had superior equipment in form of tanks, and usually also artillery support and mechanised infantry. But the only real elite German division I know of was the PanzerLehr, which was purposely raised to have the best equipment and had a large proportion of experienced tankers, while the rest of the army suffered from casualties which reduced their ratio of experienced personnel.
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Panzer-Lehr was rated very highly by the Panzetruppen - they were lumped with 2nd SS and I believe 12th SS as being the top Panzer units in France - but it's worth noting that Panzer-Lehr could only be formed by stripping all of the training schools of many of their instructors! This gravely weakened Panzer training standards leading to a disastrous series of tank vs tank engagements in the Lorraine region later in 1944.

That said high ratings did not necessarily always translate to good performance. 12th SS did pretty well, but they were stationed close to the Normandy area and managed to get into action as a relatively coherent Division. 2nd SS had to road march from Southern France, arrived in bits and pieces, and spent a bit too much time delayed by partisans leading to poor performances especially at Mortain. Panzer-Lehr was hampered early on by having only half its tanks in action - the Panther battalion was delayed by rail attacks - and had a disastrous attempt to attack the US Infantry in early July. That said they held to the last after getting carpet-bombed at the outset of the Cobra offensive, which was a pretty impressive feat despite being basically wiped out in the process.
 
Zinegata said:
That's a myth based on a misreading of Zetterling's conclusions in Normandy 1944. SS units in France were not necessarily better equipped than their Heer counterparts. What Zetterling didn't make more clear was that France was a rest and refit area so everyone was making do with incomplete TO&Es.

In 1943 in the Eastern Front, during the heydey of SS effectiveness, they were among the first to be issued Tiger tanks that were integrated into their Divisions and they had priority with replacements. The situation in France 1944 however was very different. The SS were much less "elite" in pretty much all ways by 1944, even in the "best" Divisions. 12th SS in particular has a "fierce" reputation but the interview I've read of an actual tank gunner in the Division revealed the unit had way more scared kids than fierce fighters for the Reich.
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Its the other way round Zetterling proves that the SS was not better equipped as the Wehrmacht units, but we where there before in another forum, nice to know you still havent read the book.

Zinegata said:
Panzer-Lehr was rated very highly by the Panzetruppen - they were lumped with 2nd SS and I believe 12th SS as being the top Panzer units in France - but it's worth noting that Panzer-Lehr could only be formed by stripping all of the training schools of many of their instructors! This gravely weakened Panzer training standards leading to a disastrous series of tank vs tank engagements in the Lorraine region later in 1944.

That said high ratings did not necessarily always translate to good performance. 12th SS did pretty well, but they were stationed close to the Normandy area and managed to get into action as a relatively coherent Division. 2nd SS had to road march from Southern France, arrived in bits and pieces, and spent a bit too much time delayed by partisans leading to poor performances especially at Mortain. Panzer-Lehr was hampered early on by having only half its tanks in action - the Panther battalion was delayed by rail attacks - and had a disastrous attempt to attack the US Infantry in early July. That said they held to the last after getting carpet-bombed at the outset of the Cobra offensive, which was a pretty impressive feat despite being basically wiped out in the process.
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They had not to strip the schools of their instructors, they had an excess and used the excess to incorporate it into the Lehr. As a matter of fact the Germans never lowered the standart of Tank crew training nor the length.
Trying to make Arracourt as a sample of the overall performance of the German tank troops is as wrong as trying to make the same with the performance of the US 1st Armoured in its first fights, loosing its three combat commands in mere days. In the Ardennes in attack the German Panzer Units outperformed the US Armoured units by a great margin.

EUG_MadMat said:
Bicycle troops?
No, I'm afraid we won't ... :)
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Why not? Had hoped for the Schnelle Brigade 30 as spear tip. :D
 
EUG_MadMat said:
Schnelle Brigade 30 is included somehow, through some other elements of its TO&E. ;)
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Another WW2 game without Japan... need my N1K2 now!

But no srsly i'm very excited about this game and i can't wait for the amazing expansions. I can allready hear my ISU-152's starting their engines in the far distance
 
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