Sounds like that hypothetical player made a bad play. What's your point? There's also the option of just not letting trucks influence or pass the front line.
The back pedalling begins!
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the concern i have is about the historicity. Will the german infantry be brought forward in tucks? We all know that in 1940 the motorisation of the german army was almost inexistant. Let alone in 1944. Some panzergrenadier or panzer division had an extensive mecanisation/motorisation which could bring forward its units. Look at pictures of german units moving up to the normandy theatre. While some SS units and panzer units are driving, most of the guys are walking. And this is especially true at the end of the campaign.
Should we start looking at the number of trucks per division? per army corps?
Eugen is trying to create a game that can compete with COH and others that can be displayed on twitch, not a historically accurate game.
Should we start looking at the number of trucks per division? per army corps?
Eugen is trying to create a game that can compete with COH and others that can be displayed on twitch, not a historically accurate game.
@RoyalColor had this to say, which he can elaborate on if he likes:
"Every German division had a transport column at their disposal and also there were independent transport units at corps and army levels, which "services" were simply requested when needed, by divisional/regimental/battalion quartermaster. This obviously wasn't perfect and required a lot of planning before larger operations, but Germans were quite efficient with maneuvering assets over their inner lines."
So as I understand it, though there were not many German divisions that were fully motorized, of course there were trucks around that they could use to redeploy a division if need be, but not make use of in combat like a mechanized division.
Think of it like Band of Brothers with the Germans attacked in the Ardennes: the 101st was not a motorized division but they were nonetheless provided trucks in order to get them to the battlefield in the first place.
Nazi Germany may not have been a 100% fully motorized army like contemporary propaganda and modern wehraboos would have us believe, but they certainly had enough trucks to do things like that. It's like the popular image of the Wehrmacht has swung too far into the opposite direction to the point that people act like it was 5% mobile and everyone else was like a Napoleonic army that literally walked from central Poland to Stalingrad.
There's literally zero evidence for that.
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1 is fixed by current way morale works as when they are shot at they would be abandoned and try to run. 2 is a valid thing to do. You should have to plan your retreat so that your troops can board transport.keynes2.0 said:
Not to mention that lack of trucks unables cool ambushes on reinforcement convoys and that half-tracks like SdKfz 251 were constantly used in action, and I for one cannot imagine Panzergrenadiers without SdKfz 250 or 251.
Yes, that's what he was replying to. Offloading troops in such a way that the trucks on autopilot gave them away would be a bad play.
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APCs stay on the map, fortunately.
Those were very much the exception to the rule. Panzergrenadiers were, by and large, motorised infantry.
You keep saying that and that trucks are "pointless micro", but I just can't see how it's true.
Firstly, having them remain as controllable units allows you to move infantry around, obviously. Having them drive back on Fast Move means you will probably want a safe corridor for them to travel through, which adds depth to the game and makes infiltration behind enemy lines even more rewarding. Having them cost extra, for then to have the player get that extra cost refunded when he returns it safely, gives you an added incentive to keep the trucks alive, and to destroy those of the enemy.
Even just having them return home as "ghost trucks" adds some challenge to the game, because, as some other player pointed out, then you give yourself away if your troops step off in the wrong spot.
Then you could of course also have a choice to spawn trucks as logistics trucks carrying supplies, healing injuries, and so on, like in Wargame, and have these trucks come from the same pool as the ones you use to ferry troops to the frontline so they don't have to walk from their spawn point
. Would make trucks even more precious.
And if the player knows that, but sets that up to happen anyway, then it's the player's fault. And I say, yet again, that it's not an issue if you make it so trucks don't influence the front line, or have the ability to pass it. This has been suggested multiple times.
Do you mean to imply that trucks had no part to play in the Second World War?
Good thing that most of the suggestions being made involve getting the trucks off the map once they're done with their duty, then.
Sure there is. Relative vulnerability to being ambushed, for one. Not looking like total fecal matter, for another. Games have had the technology to model vehicles carrying infantry since, goodness, the eighties?
No one even remotely suggested otherwise.
And that's fine. That fits the bill of the vast majority of what's being suggested.
One has to wonder how on earth you have ever played video games if you find this to be difficult. Did a river in Age of Empires cause players to just throw up their hands and surrender, because they couldn't manage the transport ships?
Folks, I don't know what to tell you. This post? It lacks energy. We're gonna make Historical Authenticity mean something again. I guarantee it.
You keep saying that and that trucks are "pointless micro", but I just can't see how it's true.
Firstly, having them remain as controllable units allows you to move infantry around, obviously.
I have played loads of Wargame in the past. I can't remember a single instance where I used trucks to relocate units. Neither have I ever seen that done by people. APCs yes. Trucks. Never. And Wargame had enormous maps, meaning you indeed need a vehicle if you want to move squads around. To reinforce your ally generally fresh units are brought in since old ones are tied down. Trucks were used simply to drop off cheap units then sent into their demise as scouts.
Having them drive back on Fast Move means you will probably want a safe corridor for them to travel through, which adds depth to the game and makes infiltration behind enemy lines even more rewarding. Having them cost extra, for then to have the player get that extra cost refunded when he returns it safely, gives you an added incentive to keep the trucks alive, and to destroy those of the enemy.
Not really. Battlefield can be vast and when things go down units die left and right, last thing you want is micro manage trucks simply for the sake of managing them.
Even just having them return home as "ghost trucks" adds some challenge to the game, because, as some other player pointed out, then you give yourself away if your troops step off in the wrong spot.
Challenge? It is like going on a shooting range to shoot your guns. Then you have to clean them. It is not a challenge, it is a nuisance. I highly recommend you Act of Aggression if you want to try out gameplay mechanics that are pointless. Whole logistic aspect of that game was to largest extent just not enjoyable.
Then you could of course also have a choice to spawn trucks as logistics trucks carrying supplies, healing injuries, and so on, like in Wargame, and have these trucks come from the same pool as the ones you use to ferry troops to the frontline so they don't have to walk from their spawn point
Wargame had a distinct separation between logistic vehicles and troop carrying vehicles. While on the ground it might not make sense however, it does have a strategic aspect. You are building a deck of units to bring with you into battle. You have to think it through when you are building it. With multi-purpose units suddenly you remove the need for logistic units and render certain design option useless.
There is response in the quote.
All of you so hell-bent on these trucks. Why is no one complaining regarding infantry not being able to ride on tanks? Or machine guns/mortars/AT-guns not being able to re-crew?
Clearly a half a tonne gun doesn't disappear into a poke ball once its crew gets killed.
It is like destroyable bridges. Sure I would like to see stuff getting blow sky high and rivers not being impassable lines but in the end you have to admit that there is no real use of this kind of mechanics in the game. If it was envisioned to do that it would already have it
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Tank Dasant wasn't always done, and especially wasn't particularly common in the west. Also, infantry and tanks don't roll into the battle on the same card.
The GMC CCKW or Opel Blitz just vanishes into thin air, as they are currently modeled in game. From what I saw in the stream, field guns leave a destroyed wreckage when they are defeated. While, realistically, this wasn't the most common thing to have happen, it's far less of a suspension of disbelief because one is conveyed in a convincing manner, the other is not.
And machine guns are just dropped. So why can't they be picked up again Baane? Why? Is an oar needed right now?
Maybe because of design choices. Planes don't fly so close to the ground either. And dog fighting usually involved higher altitudes. But it makes far less of an interesting game.
I mean, feel free to argue as much as you want. There is a reason why it is abstracted the way it is and I have a hunch it won't change. Because Rommel didn't spend part of his time as a truck dispatcher and I see no intelligent way of implementing permanent trucks into the game. Apparently Eugen has similar mind-set otherwise they would have done it.
Maybe they surprise me and change this based on 4 people that overly-like trucks. Who knows.
Yes, but the abstractions that you present are graphically represented. The trucks are not; they just vanish.
Having the trucks just vanish is lazy. There's no way around it.
Yeah, even just having them drive off, and then disappear when they get off-screen, and/or only be visible to the player once driving away, would be better.
Even better than that would be retaining control of the truck, of course. With or without a "you're holding onto a truck that could be put to better use elsewhere" tax.
Again, hoping for mod support so this can be "fixed" and trucks stay on map like APCs.
One is a thirty-one pound piece of individual equipment (in the case of the M1919.)
The other is an eight thousand, eight hundred pound (empty) piece of machinery (in the case of the GMC CCKW.)
Current compromise works well enough to portray the reality of the time. Admittedly, if they drove back to base that'd be ideal, but as it stands it works good enough.
Being able to keep control of the trucks leads to motorised infantry for all divisions, which is not realistic for most divisions and not at this (platoon-company) scale. Halftracks? Yeah, they can stay at the front and fight with the men, that's their whole reason to exist. Trucks? Hell nah, they'd be put in the rear, in the company's or battalion's logistics train.
It can be flipped around. One is a weapon of war that kills enemy soldiers, the other is a truck that sits and does nothing when unoccupied. Now is the part where you quote me and go "But one is a blah blah blah, and the other blah blah blah. Ha!" Having these pointless arguments about so-called logic go in circles and thus lead to nowhere but go on forever anyway.
That's a really bad copout and you should probably feel bad.
Yes, the machine gun kills enemy soldiers. And it is represented in game as doing that. Trucks move and ferry supplies/personnel. They are shown doing only half of their job, and it looks exceedingly ugly and lazy. The reason it looks ugly and lazy, as a matter of fact, is because it is ugly and lazy. The various transport trucks are far larger vehicles and assume a more prominent visual role than individual weapons. When they just vanish into their pokeball, it's pretty terrible.