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Destraex

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Aug 18, 2011
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A thing I drew from the latest blog is that I suspect infantry to be useless in anything but buildings. If they are as limited as red dragon infantry it is possible all they will be doing is fortifying buildings and hiding in trees. I doubt we will see the classic fox holes or infantry taking cover to fire from undulating ground. No infantry formations such as loose formation to make them harder to kill. I know capturing buildings was a huge part of ww2 Europe. But buildings are not the be all and end of all of infantry capability in world war 2.

http://www.eugensystems.com/steel-division-normandy-44-gameplay-three-phase/
 
A thing I drew from the latest blog is that I suspect infantry to be useless in anything but buildings. If they are as limited as red dragon infantry it is possible all they will be doing is fortifying buildings and hiding in trees. I doubt we will see the classic fox holes or infantry taking cover to fire from undulating ground. No infantry formations such as loose formation to make them harder to kill. I know capturing buildings was a huge part of ww2 Europe. But buildings are not the be all and end of all of infantry capability in world war 2.

http://www.eugensystems.com/steel-division-normandy-44-gameplay-three-phase/

No worries there buddy, infantry in SD can into space.
 
I can't say much because of NDA only to reserve judgement. I can tell you it's not the same as RD infantry.
That's very helpful because infantry in RD is far too limited for my taste
 
A thing I drew from the latest blog is that I suspect infantry to be useless in anything but buildings. If they are as limited as red dragon infantry it is possible all they will be doing is fortifying buildings and hiding in trees. I doubt we will see the classic fox holes or infantry taking cover to fire from undulating ground. No infantry formations such as loose formation to make them harder to kill. I know capturing buildings was a huge part of ww2 Europe. But buildings are not the be all and end of all of infantry capability in world war 2.

http://www.eugensystems.com/steel-division-normandy-44-gameplay-three-phase/
I hate to be the negative nancy, but this whole devblog just kind of came over as a bunch of bad news to me for various reasons.

I can't say much because of NDA only to reserve judgement. I can tell you it's not the same as RD infantry.
This, at least, is good. Previous iterations of IRISZOOM have treated infantry as this sort of weird pseudo-vehicle, and they were pretty well useless outside of buildings. It'll be nice to see if they behave more like infantry rather than robots, and if they are at least more robust in semi-open ground.

After all, in the cold war, tank shells were almost twice as large as the typical tank gun in WWII. So, hopefully, one round from a tank won't wipe out a squad.
 
I hate to be the negative nancy, but this whole devblog just kind of came over as a bunch of bad news to me for various reasons.


This, at least, is good. Previous iterations of IRISZOOM have treated infantry as this sort of weird pseudo-vehicle, and they were pretty well useless outside of buildings. It'll be nice to see if they behave more like infantry rather than robots, and if they are at least more robust in semi-open ground.

After all, in the cold war, tank shells were almost twice as large as the typical tank gun in WWII. So, hopefully, one round from a tank won't wipe out a squad.

I think that they maybe could have added a def bonus to stationary infantry anywhere to simulate folds in the ground that soldiers find when under fire.
 
A thing I drew from the latest blog is that I suspect infantry to be useless in anything but buildings. If they are as limited as red dragon infantry it is possible all they will be doing is fortifying buildings and hiding in trees. I doubt we will see the classic fox holes or infantry taking cover to fire from undulating ground. No infantry formations such as loose formation to make them harder to kill. I know capturing buildings was a huge part of ww2 Europe. But buildings are not the be all and end of all of infantry capability in world war 2.

http://www.eugensystems.com/steel-division-normandy-44-gameplay-three-phase/

Well i guess its kinda realistic that if the tank spots an infantry squad in the open at 500m, the infantry can either try to run away or hug the ground and try to stay alive while some support arrives. Cause they didn't have atgm launchers in ww2. Hills blocking line of sight was a thing in wargame rd so i assume its the same here too. Not sure about foxholes and formations.

Haven't seen anything to suggest formations are in, they could have been useful but i'm not sure if would add that much to the game. Like constantly switching between "more health" and "more damage"? So pretty much if you're facing enemy infantry switch to more damage, if you're facing vehicles switch more health. Might as well represent it with various HE values and say that infantry is always using loose formation when it sees incoming tank\artillery shells.

Not sure why do you say that infantry is bad in wargame RD. Judjging by their speed, health and ability to reliably hit tanks with an rpg from 700m away, many squads were already pretty much genetically-engineered super soldiers. :D
 
I'm surprised you say infantry is limited in RD, too. Of course you need to put them in forests and buildings, they're unarmoured flesh-and-blood soldiers. When you do put them in defilade or in cover, though, and give them decent spotters? Gods, can they kick butt.
 
I'm surprised you say infantry is limited in RD, too. Of course you need to put them in forests and buildings, they're unarmoured flesh-and-blood soldiers. When you do put them in defilade or in cover, though, and give them decent spotters? Gods, can they kick butt.
The issue in RD (and pretty much all the wargames) is that entire platoons get wiped off the face of the field from a few tank shells. That, even from 120-mm guns, is wholly unrealistic.

Weapons such as ATGMs, which are designed to engage and destroy tanks, have a very difficult time doing that because of the way RD handles them (they lose LOS once, the missile goes into space) and the fact that once they reveal themselves, they just get auto-fired on and scragged. Forests offer infantry no additional protection as far as I remembered (only made them harder to spot) and was a direct detriment to their survival when helicopters were involved (individual trees blocked MANPAD los, while the helicopters safely bombarded the area with rockets.)

This meant that the one and only role for infantry was to serve as urban turrets, occupying city districts and jumping around for however long they lived/had ammunition for their AT rocket launchers.

They weren't flexible, they were a permanently defensive unit and the possibility of going offensive with them was just absent. Some can argue that it's realistic, but either way, they were way too vulnerable to everything. Didn't help that aircraft were just panic buttons for players to make up for strategic shortfalls rather than a valid tool to break the WW1-style deadlock the game often turned to.

My hopes for them in this game are as follows:

  • That they won't be so vulnerable
  • That they will be a legitimate weapon system that can actually serve a role outside of babysitters for towns
  • That they can find cover outside of buildings
  • That they won't just be coded as an awkward vehicle
 
This ^^^ What Baane said so much !

One the main things lacking in all Wargame series was lack of an infantry game.
 
Forests offer infantry no additional protection as far as I remembered (only made them harder to spot) and was a direct detriment to their survival when helicopters were involved (individual trees blocked MANPAD los, while the helicopters safely bombarded the area with rockets.)

This meant that the one and only role for infantry was to serve as urban turrets, occupying city districts and jumping around for however long they lived/had ammunition for their AT rocket launchers.

They weren't flexible, they were a permanently defensive unit and the possibility of going offensive with them was just absent.
forests provide a 0.6x damage modifier to infantry ever since DLC3, which is 2.5 years old.

https://honhonhonhon.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/infantry-is-overpowered/
this disagrees with you completely. It may be worth reading the whole guide, because it almost sounds like we are playing different games, or that you haven't touched RD.
 
forests provide a 0.6x damage modifier to infantry ever since DLC3, which is 2.5 years old.

https://honhonhonhon.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/infantry-is-overpowered/
this disagrees with you completely. It may be worth reading the whole guide, because it almost sounds like we are playing different games, or that you haven't touched RD.
I stand corrected regarding the forests, then. As I said, I could very well have been wrong. Really didn't help their survivability, though; they still got scragged pretty quick.

I've killed more than my fair share of rifle squads with tanks in woods. I've also suffered the agonizing crawl of trying to take a forested hill with infantry when helicopters were in play. Neither are fun.

Also note that this article is talking about specific shock infantry and is quite hyperbolic. I've killed shocks in droves in my time playing the game. Yes, in special circumstances, infantry is the master of an area. That condition is that they're in an urban setting, and not in the process of getting napalmed.
 
with shorter reach, destructible buildings and radically different map design and win conditions, how would you like infantry to be more useful?
First of all, by not making them unrealistically vulnerable to everything. While infantry is unarmored, entire platoons getting fragged in the first volly of tank gun fire was silly. Here, where the typical tank gun was about half the size of those in RD, infantry should be a lot more survivable. I mean, I addressed this in a previous post;

More survivability,ability to find cover in more types of terrain.
 
Yeah, a COH-style cover system would be nice, as well as forests maybe not blocking LOS as much as they do, at least not while your men are actually inside them.

with shorter reach, destructible buildings and radically different map design and win conditions, how would you like infantry to be more useful?
That post right above yours, where he writes a five paragraph post partly about how he'd like infantry to be more useful? Maybe your answer lies there :) .
 
I mean, I addressed this in a previous post;
sorry, I meant more useful than RD's. Because with everything about this game's design, I don't quite think it's possible. I'm not counting possible features such as damage modifiers while static, because what would they add to interactions vs tanks?
Separating that post was meant to show that it wasn't being directly addressed to you, anyway.

Compare the weapon ranges shown on-stream. The PIAT, one of the longer ranged anti-tank launchers, has 200 range, whereas tanks can have 1200. That's only 1/6th the range of the tank, whilst in Wargame it's more like 1/2.6, or even 1/2.2 in the case of the Eryx. Compared to RD, most of the portable anti-tank solutions only work point-blank, when there is no incentive to engage them.
 
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Yeah, a COH-style cover system would be nice, as well as forests maybe not blocking LOS as much as they do, at least not while your men are actually inside them.
I doubt we'll get something like CoH, as this game is on a larger scale and individual squad tactics are less of a concern. But as long as a 37-mm shell doesn't cause entire squads to drop dead all the time, I'll be happy. Heck, 75-mm shells probably shouldn't, either, save for the most dire of circumstances. If you look hard enough, you can find kill radii for high explosive shells used by several tanks during the second world war. The thing is, those are theoretical and kind of assume the shell lands right in the middle of people who are just standing there. In practice, infantry behind cover of any kind of more resistant by a considerable margin.

sorry, I meant more useful than RD's. Because with everything about this game's design, I don't quite think it's possible.
Sure it is. The infantry is getting shot at with much smaller cannon, for one.
 
I stand corrected regarding the forests, then. As I said, I could very well have been wrong. Really didn't help their survivability, though; they still got scragged pretty quick.

I've killed more than my fair share of rifle squads with tanks in woods. I've also suffered the agonizing crawl of trying to take a forested hill with infantry when helicopters were in play. Neither are fun.

Also note that this article is talking about specific shock infantry and is quite hyperbolic. I've killed shocks in droves in my time playing the game. Yes, in special circumstances, infantry is the master of an area. That condition is that they're in an urban setting, and not in the process of getting napalmed.
I've had the opposite experience in RD and EE: if the infantry properly gets the drop on tanks, they can absolutely slaughter them. Sure, infantry is a bit of a niche weapon, but they're really good at what they do, and the fact that they're hard to spot makes them really versatile in my eyes.

I know I haven't played Wargame that much ("only" 60+ hours in total :p ), but this seems to be one of the quirks of the game; that different people have so differing views on various units and tactics. Some people swear by, say, infantry or airborne infantry, others call them useless. It reminds me of Dominions, actually: so many assets and different strategies and tactics you can employ.


Edit: I don't see why a COH-style cover system wouldn't work in SD. It wouldn't need to have the same level of micro, but infantry should crouch behind stone walls, take cover behind trees, and so on, or at the very least get a cover bonus while near these things as if they were doing these things. I don't care if there is a litteral "squad hiding behind tank obstacles" animation, just give me a cover bonus when near them and I'm happy.
 
The size of the HE round from a tank matters of course, however if an infantry squad was bunched I would expect it to be killed by almost any tank HE shell. In addition tanks with smaller shells will have a faster rate of reload, meaning the amount of DP dealt would be very similar anyway. Because penetration values do not matter for HE against infantry. UNLESS they are behind cover.

What I want to see is squads/sections (10men) and platoons (30 or so men) taking cover correctly and deploying weapons in cover correctly to give them the best profile for the enemy they are facing. Patrolling and moving forward in formations that don't get them all killed in one enfilade shot. Of course this is not always possible and it's part of the reason why house to house combat was more deadly in ww2 for infantry than more open combat in forests and rural areas.... however in Eugen games infantry tend to be very vulnerable in anything but buildings. That is just my experience, considering I saw tanks assault through heavy wooded areas.

I also hope they have both dense impassible for vehicles forest and other densities of forest to give infantry more cover.

Also the fact that when Eugen has open terrain, generally it is exactly that. A flat football field freshly mowed and perfectly level. Infantry cannot play against vehicles or even other infantry in this terrain. I don't want eugen to magically make line infantry invisible all the time either.

I would like it if as infantry advanced in open ground they were in line abreast, if they are assaulting they should be bounding and shooting as they do it and if they get fired upon enough they could go to ground individually behind cover. That cover in open ground can be shell holes, hay stacks, boulders, slight crests etc. There is so much more cover than just buildings for infantry. Consider though that in the bocage farmland their would have been open fields well tilled and flat, but that hedges in that country would block LOS and that bocage was far more rare in the British area. The British typically had no such cover and were thus using more massed brute force advance tactics.

Infantry vs infantry fights in open terrain should NOT be rare, but I bet they will be. Because there will be so many vehicles that it will be like modern warfare.

I don't think the ratio of vehicles to infantry was very high in ww2. In normandy though it probably was higher than average. Meaning more infantry on infantry assaults? Maybe that was eastern front more because late war I guess the western front would have been more highly mechanised.

Defensively infantry would have been very spread out... depending on their total numbers of course. But if you put one squad in a town. I would not expect them to bunch together in one room.

Which brings me to smoke grenades and their deployment by infantry?

Some pics for educational purposes from my Osprey Elite World War II infantry tactics squad and platoon. By Dr Stephen Bull and Illustrated by Peter Dennis.

Notice how the section separates to attack and the use of smoke? I don't expect this in game of course. Because the scale is larger.
33579984871_5b11511294_k.jpg


Battle of the Bulge. Also a prepared position that would have taken hours to complete. Don't expect this in game either. Because this is out of scope for a meeting engagement. But this kind of defence was something that perhaps the defending team should be able to deploy before the game starts. Sort of like total war allows you to put some fortifications down if you are not the attacker. Be good to see a scenario based multi game.
32866828124_bf38a882b7_k.jpg


Hedgerow defences. Notice how spread out these guys are.
32866837224_c7c0888087_k.jpg
 
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....

Also the fact that when Eugen has open terrain, generally it is exactly that. A flat football field freshly mowed and perfectly level. Infantry cannot play against vehicles or even other infantry in this terrain. I don't want eugen to magically make line infantry invisible all the time either.

That's a huge part of it. Eugen fields are like football field with long grass, where in reality many would have undulations that can offer dead ground, especially when prone.

There's so many examples, like lack of stream channels along the side of roads, or just slight rises of the roads.