Are Ck2+ Muslims OP?

[FakeShady]

So im very new to CK2+ but from my newbie experience in it it seems like Muslims are very OP they still get all the goodies that being Muslim gives, unlimited CBs, and they don't have decadence? Wtf. Family members still get decadent, sure, and so....? What bad does that do at all? Is it still even possible to make a Muslim blob burst?

For the lulz I went into console and gave every single unlanded male member of the Seljuk dynasty the decadent trait in the 1066 start. I then "observe", and nope, decades later they are still going strong. Alp Arslan himself got the "very decadent" trait, which minus a bit of prestige, piety and opinion. Decadent courtiers don't matter as long as they don't hold land, then the revolt risk and reduced tax doesn't matter at all.

Now as Byzzies I'm the one with a ticking time bomb on my hands, with "imperial decadence", now I'm the one who has to win holy wars, crusades, what not. Wtf, makes you wonder why create an empire at all.

Also, "imperial subjugation" is weird. Some duke you can subjugate even though they are out of your de jure empire, so you can't even if they are in your de jure empire....

Is there at least a wiki or an info page for CK2+ info? There must be something I'm missing here...

 

[LordPeter]

Muslim balance is off?
Maybe.
We recently had a thread about just the opposite problem: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/why-does-islam-always-collapse-768.993933/

Frankly I'm not sure...

 

[zeress]

Schroedinger's Islam

 

[FakeShady]

Muslim balance is off?
Maybe.
We recently had a thread about just the opposite problem: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/why-does-islam-always-collapse-768.993933/

Frankly I'm not sure...

well none of the reported problems seems to be Islam's fault, but rather the AI responding badly to a harder game.

Coming from Vanilla, it sure seems like Islam has retained all their bonuses, while having no downsides. Like I said, using console command and having an entire dynasty full of unlanded decadent males don't seem to do much at all.

"Imperial subjugation" is weird and wonky as well, on top of "imperial decadence", so you can argue too that that is a nerf to Islam's biggest enemies (ERE & HRE)

edit: yes, i was hoping one of you fine gentlemen can explain "imperial subjugation" to me since there's no wiki

 

[zeress]

Like I said, using console command and having an entire dynasty full of unlanded decadent males don't seem to do much at all.

That's not how it works in CK2+, so it's not surprising that that wouldn't result in any noticeable differences. Only the head of dynasty matters in +. Said decadent members who attain land outside of the head of dynasty's realm make their own dynasty, or at least have a high tendency to do so.

As @LordPeter said though, there's a thread that discusses basically this already so I'd suggest you take a look there.

 

[zeress]

edit: yes, i was hoping one of you fine gentlemen can explain "imperial subjugation" to me since there's no wiki

You're going to have to be more specific, there are a couple CBs with a similar/same name but entirely different uses, targets etc.

 

[FakeShady]

That's not how it works in CK2+, so it's not surprising that that wouldn't result in any noticeable differences. Only the head of dynasty matters in +. Said decadent members who attain land outside of the head of dynasty's realm make their own dynasty, or at least have a high tendency to do so.

As @LordPeter said though, there's a thread that discusses basically this already so I'd suggest you take a look there.

I see. Therefore... don't land decadent members, problem solved...?

I did read that thread, which isn't very long. From the problems reported, it seems to be the physical location of the Muslim nations, which differs in culture/religion and therefore result in revolts, starts near dangerous threats, and also the "domino effect" described, which every religion has to deal with. Its got nothing to do with Islam.

Why does it matter? Because then wouldn't starting in a good location, and then converting to Islam, really really OP? There are many in vanilla who complains that Islam is too strong, even with vanilla decadence. I just don't see the logic here...

Also, with imperial decadence, now HRE/ERE have become the "blob or die" entities that Caliphates are historically known for.

You're going to have to be more specific, there are a couple CBs with a similar/same name but entirely different uses, targets etc.

I have no idea, I was Byzantines the whole time and when I press "declare war" it appears I can take entire duchys off the Kingdom of Croatia due to "Imperial Subjugation". I then checked again, and Croatia is nowhere within my dejure land. I can't use this same CB on Hungary, Georgia, Armenia though.

 

[vukica]

No, muslims are not OP. try playing ottoman in last BM and conquer the balkans.

I have no idea, I was Byzantines the whole time and when I press "declare war" it appears I can take entire duchys off the Kingdom of Croatia due to "Imperial Subjugation". I then checked again, and Croatia is nowhere within my dejure land. I can't use this same CB on Hungary, Georgia, Armenia though.

Byzies get special CB to some of ERE land in the balkans and syria. croatia probably shouldn't be there historically but really who cares...

 

[FakeShady]

No, muslims are not OP. try playing ottoman in last BM and conquer the balkans.



Byzies get special CB to some of ERE land in the balkans and syria. croatia probably shouldn't be there historically but really who cares...

I can see that certain Muslim nations start off in bad situations. I was thinking more of "start as Byzzies and convert to Islam, because its better in every way" kinda OP

Is there a wiki or something where information like CBs etc can be found? I could never have learned vanilla without a wiki.

 

[zeress]

I can see that certain Muslim nations start off in bad situations. I was thinking more of "start as Byzzies and convert to Islam, because its better in every way" kinda OP

If you become non-christian as the ERE you'll find your vassals promptly wanting to leave, in multiple ways

Is there a wiki or something where information like CBs etc can be found? I could never have learned vanilla without a wiki.

No one has ever made one and actually maintained it to this day. There was a previous one, but it's so outdated at this point it wouldn't matter.

 

[FakeShady]

If you become non-christian as the ERE you'll find your vassals promptly wanting to leave, in multiple ways

Well, point remains then doesn't it. Perhaps I should have rephrased my question then: not so much "are muslims OP?" but "is Islam OP?"

 

[karmaepsilon]

The Abbassids usually fall apart pretty fast in my games, even when I'm playing far away from them, but usually from the ashes of that I get a concerningly powerful Egypt that takes up almost all of Africa and sometimes scoops up whatever Umas haven't fallen to the Karlings (if they are doing well that game) by the time they reach Morocco

 

[a1b2c3d4e5f6]

They depend too much on the ruler, while a good ruler can be really powerful due to overall muslim mechanics (religious traits, powerful CBs, succession, secular caliphates, etc.) they have two deadlines, and the Abbasids particularly so due to being Empire tier and the Court Anarchy event.

The first deadline is when a decadent character inherits, the hit to relations (and the likely decadent dynasty that usually goes in hand plus the bad traits that caused that decadent trait) coupled with the relation malus due to being a new ruler (and uncrowned) makes them have a much lower vassal army. In turn this makes them have revolts so they can't get crowned or go to Hajj to remove the trait.

Aside from the relations hit, being decadent causes this smaller army to be handicapped in morale, losing piety and make revolts more likely.

Being an Empire tier, Abassids have imperial decadence, due to being so large, each time someone inherits the empire, it gets increased by a substantial amount. While they are stable the penalties get muffled due to their size and they can reduce imperial decadence by winning holy wars, etc. The problem comes when the decadences stack (much lower morale, hugely reduced income, reduced levies, etc). As income gets reduced lack of funds is posible so the army may get a -100% morale on top of that.

This massive loss of power makes independence factions fire, religious revolts and getting warred on. As they lose wars, imperial decadence gets raised, furthering the problem.

While Open succession is quite powerful, it also creates claimants that press their claims against the weakened liege adding a set of internal wars.

The other deadline is a child inheriting, due to their low stats the court anarchy event may fire bringing its own set of problems.

To make it short, while there is a good ruler they are very powerful but when a bad ruler inherits, it brings them to a downward spiral that makes collapse very likely. In my Spanish Empire run (began as Asturias) the Abbasids went from 45k soldiers and being able to defeat the byzantines to having 4 defensive wars as average at all times, 2,5k soldiers with no morale, 50-60 imperial decadence, bankrupt and only one vassal with a positive opinion due to acceding to faction demands.

 

[FakeShady]

They depend too much on the ruler, while a good ruler can be really powerful due to overall muslim mechanics (religious traits, powerful CBs, succession, secular caliphates, etc.) they have two deadlines, and the Abbasids particularly so due to being Empire tier and the Court Anarchy event.

The first deadline is when a decadent character inherits, the hit to relations (and the likely decadent dynasty that usually goes in hand plus the bad traits that caused that decadent trait) coupled with the relation malus due to being a new ruler (and uncrowned) makes them have a much lower vassal army. In turn this makes them have revolts so they can't get crowned or go to Hajj to remove the trait.

Aside from the relations hit, being decadent causes this smaller army to be handicapped in morale, losing piety and make revolts more likely.

Being an Empire tier, Abassids have imperial decadence, due to being so large, each time someone inherits the empire, it gets increased by a substantial amount. While they are stable the penalties get muffled due to their size and they can reduce imperial decadence by winning holy wars, etc. The problem comes when the decadences stack (much lower morale, hugely reduced income, reduced levies, etc). As income gets reduced lack of funds is posible so the army may get a -100% morale on top of that.

This massive loss of power makes independence factions fire, religious revolts and getting warred on. As they lose wars, imperial decadence gets raised, furthering the problem.

While Open succession is quite powerful, it also creates claimants that press their claims against the weakened liege adding a set of internal wars.

The other deadline is a child inheriting, due to their low stats the court anarchy event may fire bringing its own set of problems.

To make it short, while there is a good ruler they are very powerful but when a bad ruler inherits, it brings them to a downward spiral that makes collapse very likely. In my Spanish Empire run (began as Asturias) the Abbasids went from 45k soldiers and being able to defeat the byzantines to having 4 defensive wars as average at all times, 2,5k soldiers with no morale, 50-60 imperial decadence, bankrupt and only one vassal with a positive opinion due to acceding to faction demands.

I see. Yeah, this thread was made day 2 into my CK2+ journey. At first it seemed ridiculous: Muslims no longer have their biggest weakness (decadence) and their main enemy now has Imperial Decadence to worry about. How is this not OP?

After many hours playing the Muslims my opinion began to change. Iqta is still powerful, but in terms of Cassus Belli it is actually quite similar to the Christians, which was the whole reason why Muslims are strong in vanilla

In terms of balance, Muslims turns out to be no where as strong as I first thought. Though at the same time I am honestly quite disappointed that both the biggest strength (CBs) and the biggest weakness (vanilla decadence) of Islam has been removed. The whole "Sword of Islam" feel of playing Muslims in vanilla just isn't there anymore.

I'm actually working on a sub mod now that would return this "win war to remove decadence" flavour back to Islam again. With my weak modding skills, it might take a long time to complete, but we'll see how it goes

 

[RX2000]

Is there a wiki or something where information like CBs etc can be found? I could never have learned vanilla without a wiki.

Dude this would be soooo awesome. I'm also new to CK2+ & have a bajillion questions, but nowhere to get answers. I search in this forum but very rarely do I find exactly what I'm looking for.

 

[vukica]

have a bajillion questions, but nowhere to get answers.

how 'bout the questions & answers thread?
Like you know... post a question, and then someone who knows how to read the code, or has direct experience will answer.

 

[FakeShady]

Dude this would be soooo awesome. I'm also new to CK2+ & have a bajillion questions, but nowhere to get answers. I search in this forum but very rarely do I find exactly what I'm looking for.

turns out there's no wiki. We're going in blind on this one loool. Best we can hope for is ask and pray someone helps. On the bright side though, this game improved my code-reading skills tremendously kek

If you have time just try out characters from every part of the map first (christians, muslims, heretics, nomads, tribals... etc) there are countless small, extremely subtle changes made to every one of the groups mentioned, that can be gamechanging. Experience is your best friend!

 

[RX2000]

how 'bout the questions & answers thread?
Like you know... post a question, and then someone who knows how to read the code, or has direct experience will answer.

Haha good point. Gonna have to try that.